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Topic: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?

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Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2023, 01:51:50 PM »
I love that the favorite past-time of the ultra wealthy is seeing how completely they can avoid contributing to the large, community pot. 

Those most able seem to be the least willing. 
These strikes me as a massive over generalization with no factual support.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2023, 01:57:38 PM »
He pretty clearly is arguing that monopolies are not an inherent end point of capitalism.  I'm pretty sure he understands a monopoly is nearly always bad for consumers.  He seems like a pretty bright guy, to me.
Why do you go there?
This is what I'm talking about.
Never have I called into question his intelligence.  But you add that little barb that suggests maybe I did.  
.
You've been pretty sassy the last few weeks.  I've noticed.
You've stopped being an honest interlachuter.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2023, 01:58:32 PM »
These strikes me as a massive over generalization with no factual support. 
They spend money preventing it from being able to support the claim factually.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2023, 02:03:13 PM »
They spend money preventing it from being able to support the claim factually.
Maybe English is a second language here?


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2023, 02:04:23 PM »
Maybe English is a second language here?


You've really changed.  For the worse.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2023, 02:07:19 PM »
Without rehashing everything in this thread I have a few thoughts on the subject:

Rich vs Wealthy:
We've talked mostly about NAV and to me that is more about "Wealthy" than "Rich". 

If you are, let's say, a Surgeon who makes $1M/yr but you are also a crazy spender who spends every penny (as crazy as this sounds, there are people like this) then you are "rich" because you are living an extravagant lifestyle that costs $1M/yr (well not actually $1M but the after tax take-home on it). That said, you have a NAV of approximately zero so you clearly are NOT wealthy. 

"Rich" to me is about the "income statement". If you have a lot of income, you are "Rich regardless of what your balance sheet looks like.

"Wealthy" to me is about the "balance sheet". If you have a high net worth, you are wealthy even if you have MUCH less income than the $1M/yr Surgeon in my example above. 

That said, the definition of "rich" varies greatly by location. I don't know @betarhoalphadelta 's income nor whether that makes him "rich" in California but it would take a LOT more income  for him to be "rich" than it would for me here in Ohio. 

Wealth is less regional because you either have the net worth to live comfortably in an expensive locale or you don't. Ie, if you have a net worth of $10M you can afford to live more-or-less wherever you want. If you are retired with a net worth of say $3M you can live pretty comfortably in a relatively low cost-of-living area but you'd be stretching it to try to retire in Hawaii on that money.

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2023, 02:10:31 PM »
I can go along with that differentiation.  Rich pertains more to lifestyle (and income to support same).

Someone once said "You never know what your neighbors make, but you can guess how much they spend."

A person could live a "rich lifestyle" for a while by borrowing relentlessly.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2023, 02:29:30 PM »
Interplay between "rich" and "wealthy". 

I borrowed my $1M/yr Surgeon example from a book I read, The Millionaire Next Door. 

The authors started out as marketing gurus and they were studying high net worth individuals on the mistaken assumption that those people would spend a lot of money. They found instead, at least in the $1-10M range, that most individuals were pretty thrifty and lived on a reasonable budget. 

I loved this quote:
Someone asked them why a Millionaire would have a budget and they said: "Have you ever noticed that the people you see running EVERY morning don't look like they need to run every morning?"

Same principle applies to net worth. Most people in the $1-10M range inherited only a small fraction of their wealth (if any). They are mostly business owners and they mostly fit in such that if you were their neighbor (hence the title of the book) you would have no idea that they had a high net worth. 

I think when people mentally picture "the wealthy" they tend to think Beverly Hillbillies or someone being showcased by Robin Leach. I mean the Ultra-Wealthy types who can buy basically anything, fly basically anywhere, etc. 

Someone with $1M could buy a Ferrari or take a trip to Paris or whatever but they can't just buy any car any time or go to Paris every weekend. 

Wealth also has both an age component and an income component. 

Age:
The older you are the less you need. Some 20-something who hit it big and wants to retire needs a LOT of money because he has a remaining life expectancy of more than 60 years. An 85 year old retiree has a remaining life expectancy of five, maybe 10 years so he needs a lot less.

Income:
A family with a household income of $50k clearly isn't "rich" but that also means that they are spending around $50k/yr so if they have $500k in the bank that is 10 years at their spending. If the Surgeon from my example above had the same $500k in the bank that would only cover his expenses for six months. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2023, 02:35:17 PM »
I can go along with that differentiation.  Rich pertains more to lifestyle (and income to support same).

Someone once said "You never know what your neighbors make, but you can guess how much they spend."

A person could live a "rich lifestyle" for a while by borrowing relentlessly. 
And, crazy as my example sounds, there are a significant number of people with very high incomes living paycheck to paycheck. It isn't the same as eating Ramen and living paycheck to paycheck but they still have little or no savings to get through a tough time. 

I mowed yards and did landscape in HS and college. I remember one couple, DINK (Double Income No Kids) that lived in a (then) Quarter-Million dollar house with a Mercedes and a BMW in the garage asking if they could pay me on Friday for mowing their lawn on Monday. I said "sure" but thought "seriously?"

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2023, 02:35:30 PM »
They would IFF there is another competitor.  Imagine I make paper towels and toilet paper and over time drive out or buy up every competitor.
My point is that Walmart is one of the brakes that stops you from taking that big of a market. 

There are also others. If P&G starts making moves to buy up competitors beyond a certain level, that signals to the market an intent to become a monopoly. Other large companies may defensively buy up other paper towel / toilet paper companies to defend against letting P&G have them. 

For example Costco. Costco knows that TP and paper towels drive a lot of revenue in their warehouses. Right now, I think they're happy contracting out the supply portion. But if they get a market signal that P&G is trying to corner that market, they might buy up a supplier to ensure they're getting stable supply at a price they prefer while still having that supplier sell into the general market. 

Costco has already shown a willingness to do that with chickens. What's to say they wouldn't do it with these other items to protect their supply chain--and in turn, helping to protect a free market even if that wasn't their initial goal?

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2023, 02:39:13 PM »
Yup, the moderately wealthy folks often as not got there by being thrifty over the years and not spending well beyond their means.  I like the jogger analogy.  And I agree those "in the news" like say Paris Hilton generate an image that all wealthy folks are like that, living a profligate lifestyle on inherited money.  And some are of course.

The wealthy folks living a quiet life with a nice house don't get on TV.  

One of the most wealthy, Bill Gates, is trying to give most of his money away.  One of the most wealthy around here donates a ton as well, though he does like the publicity.  Sam Walton is another example of a fellow with billions who drove an old truck, Warren Buffet lives in a 1962 nice ranch house in Omaha. one he bought in 1962.

I wouldn't be working like Buffett works if I had his resources, I would probably do like Gates is trying to do.

Cincydawg

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2023, 02:40:36 PM »
Maybe in the modern era business methods make monopolies unlikely, I can see that.  In the distant past, a P&G probably could buy up all the paper companies without a "Walmart" knowing about it.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2023, 02:42:18 PM »
Are you suggesting monopolies aren't bad?  As if one company is the only one selling deodorant (or better yet, chicken), that they wouldn't price it much higher?  That their quality control wouldn't suffer?  That any and all complaints wouldn't be met with a shrug and a "tough shit"?
And for your last paragraph, the large company with pissy customers can prevent competition with ease (given an unregulated economy).  Or they could improve things for 5-10 years and wait out the other company's failure as they spread monies around to protect their own interests. 
.
I get that most of your argument is that monopolies aren't automatic, but if you're going further and saying they're not obviously bad for the masses......that's a lonely island.
I'm saying that monopolies aren't automatic, yes. 

And yes, I understand the issues that occur with monopolistic exploitation. 

I'm also saying that the fear of monopolistic exploitation is one of the things that drives the market to reject monopolies and not allow them to form. And that it's also one of the things that would lead to a breakup of monopoly should one ever actually manage to form. 

You have made the first assertion that monopolies are inevitable under an unregulated free market and the second assertion that once formed, they will be able exploit the masses basically forever.

I'm arguing that your assertions don't recognize some of the incentives in a free market economy that fight against the formation of monopolies and the dynamism of the free market that would lead to them breaking up. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Critical Issue: What is "rich"?
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2023, 02:44:07 PM »
Maybe in the modern era business methods make monopolies unlikely, I can see that.  In the distant past, a P&G probably could buy up all the paper companies without a "Walmart" knowing about it.
I can stipulate that. I.e. why Walt Disney had to resort to all sorts of shell companies to quietly buy up the land around Orlando to build Disney World because he knew that if anyone knew he was doing it, the price would climb immediately. 

It's a lot harder to pull that kind of stuff off these days. 

 

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