header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Chris Holtmann

 (Read 30770 times)

MaximumSam

  • Guest
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #168 on: January 31, 2024, 09:39:00 AM »
That would not be a good hire.
He lost to Penn State last year, so at least we keep things consistent

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #169 on: January 31, 2024, 10:06:38 AM »
If I had to guess I'd say Buzz Williams will be the next OSU coach. He is in his fifth year at TAMU, so he knows Bjork, and he has one NCAA appearance and probably won't make it this year, so TAMU won't care. Hooray?
I think this illustrates why we have been in such different places regarding this situation for so long because I agree with this:
That would not be a good hire.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #170 on: January 31, 2024, 10:34:52 AM »
It is apparent to me that @MaximumSam 's opinion of the tOSU program is VASTLY lower than mine.  I've already had a discussion with @CatsbyAZ within this thread where he asserted that tOSU was something less than top-25.  I vehemently disagree.  

My view of the tOSU program:
The AP in their all-time rankings says #10.  

Looking at league titles, the Buckeyes are #3 behind only PU and IU.  If you look a somewhat shorter timeframes the Buckeyes are 4th since MSU started winning titles and tied for 3rd since Tournament expansion in 1985.  The programs definitively ahead of them are MSU and Purdue with Indiana also ahead sometimes depending on timeframe.  Basically that tells me that Ohio State is one of the strongest Basketball Programs in the B1G.  

Ohio State has been one of the top recruiters in the B1G for as long as I've been following it (~25 years).  Matta was a CLEAR #1 in the league and one of the very best in the country for his 13 years.  Holtmann has been right at the top of the league.  They were close to the top before Matta as well.  Prior to that I don't know but the Ayers team with JJ had to have been pretty good.  Bottom line, Ohio State has proven over ~30 years and multiple coaches that the Program can recruit at a very high level.  

Another thing is the "brand" which effectively comes from Football.  My opinion is that BB doesn't really help FB but FB DOES help BB.  If you look at those AP top programs lists, the top-4 BB schools (UNC, Dook, Kansas, Kentucky) all suck at FB.  Carolina is the best of the bunch in FB at #40.  On the AP's football list there is a clear top-5 of Bama, tOSU, Oklahoma, ND, and Michigan.  Four of those five are also top-25 in BB:

  • #10 tOSU
  • #13 Michigan
  • #16 Notre Dame
  • #22 Oklahoma

The fifth is Alabama which has been improving dramatically the last few years in BB.  I *THINK* that is a reflection of them leveraging their brand (which comes from Football of course) to build a better program in BB.  

You can quibble around the margins.  You can say that the AP's list overrates them and they aren't "really" top-10.  I don't think there is any reasonable argument that they aren't top-25.  

This program should EXPECT to be one of the best in the B1G.  That doesn't mean winning the league title every year but it ABSOLUTELY means canning the coach when you go four (19-22), five (19-23), or now six (19-24) years without even being a contender.  

This program should EXPECT to make it to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament often enough that when they do it doesn't feel like a silly novelty for a FB school.  That doesn't mean we should expect four straight and five in seven years like we had under Matta (2007-2013) but it does mean that is the goal and getting there every 4-6 years should absolutely be expected.  

Max says that BB has changed and things are more random.   I direct your attention to this week's top-25.  The four biggest blue bloods are Carolina (#3), Dook (#7), Kansas (#8), and Kentucky (#10).  Other top-10 teams include UCONN which has been achieving at a blue-blood level for a few dacades (just not quite as long as the top-4), Purdue which is #1 all-time in B1G Championships, and Wisconsin which has been a high achiever since Pat Richter hired Bo Ryan. 

It isn't "random" that UCONN, Purdue, Carolina, Wisconsin, Dook, Kansas, and Kentucky are all in the top-10.  Tennessee and Marquette are also high-achieving programs with teams in the current top-10.  There is some randomness:

  • UCLA sucks this year.  
  • Utah State is top-25.  
Those are the exceptions not the rule.  In general the great programs have great teams (see current top-10).  The good programs have good teams.  Ohio State is a VERY good program historically and they have been a dumpster fire for the past two seasons and were only "meh" for Holtmann's 2nd through 5th seasons.  A competent coach will get this program back to their historical average.  We need a competent coach.  

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #171 on: January 31, 2024, 10:48:06 AM »
Reported attendance for Ohio State's home game against #14 Illinois: 10,285.

Reported attendance for the most recent Ohio State Women's home game: 18,660.

There are fans in Columbus who will support a good BB team but the AD is giving them the finger by continuing to employ the current coach.

MaximumSam

  • Guest
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #172 on: January 31, 2024, 10:50:54 AM »
Reported attendance for Ohio State's home game against #14 Illinois: 10,285.

Reported attendance for the most recent Ohio State Women's home game: 18,660.

There are fans in Columbus who will support a good BB team but the AD is giving them the finger by continuing to employ the current coach.
Lol, well about that...

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22874
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #173 on: January 31, 2024, 10:51:00 AM »
Reported attendance for Ohio State's home game against #14 Illinois: 10,285.

Reported attendance for the most recent Ohio State Women's home game: 18,660.

There are fans in Columbus who will support a good BB team but the AD is giving them the finger by continuing to employ the current coach.
Was that the Iowa game?  Caitlin Clark is a draw.  She's the most well known player in college basketball.  Men or women

CatsbyAZ

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3183
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #174 on: January 31, 2024, 11:15:33 AM »

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31077
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #175 on: January 31, 2024, 11:23:57 AM »
Max says that BB has changed and things are more random.  I direct your attention to this week's top-25.  The four biggest blue bloods are Carolina (#3), Dook (#7), Kansas (#8), and Kentucky (#10).  Other top-10 teams include UCONN which has been achieving at a blue-blood level for a few dacades (just not quite as long as the top-4), Purdue which is #1 all-time in B1G Championships, and Wisconsin which has been a high achiever since Pat Richter hired Bo Ryan.


The rise of Wisconsin was really started when Richter hired Stu Jackson. Stan Van Gundy was a disaster in his one season. Then came Dick Bennett.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #176 on: January 31, 2024, 11:30:54 AM »
The rise of Wisconsin was really started when Richter hired Stu Jackson. Stan Van Gundy was a disaster in his one season. Then came Dick Bennett.
I stand corrected. The difference is not material to my underlying point which was that UW has been a high-achieving program for a long time and they have a top-10 team currently. 

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31077
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #177 on: January 31, 2024, 11:43:44 AM »
Stu got UW into the NCAA in 1994 - UW's first appearance since 1947. He was an ace recruiter too. Getting guys like Rashard Griffith and Michael Finley to come to Madison was unheard of at the time.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #178 on: January 31, 2024, 11:59:31 AM »
B1G Programs, 1985-2023:
League titles:

  • #1 Michigan State, 11
  • #2 Purdue, 9
  • #3/4 Ohio State and Indiana, 7
  • #5/6 Wisconsin and Illinois, 6
  • #7 Michigan, 5
  • #8 Maryland, 4 (giving them credit for ACC titles)
  • #9/10/11 Minnesota, Penn State, Rutgers, 1
  • #12-14 Iowa, Nebraska, Northwestern, 0
NCAA Appearances:
  • #1 Michigan State, 32
  • #2 Purdue, 29
  • #3 Indiana, 27
  • #4 Illinois, 25
  • #5 Wisconsin, 24
  • #6/7 Michigan and Maryland, 23
  • #8 Ohio State, 22
  • #9 Iowa, 21
  • #10 Minnesota, 12
  • #11 Nebraska, 7
  • #12 Penn State, 5
  • #13 Rutgers, 4
  • #14 Northwestern, 2
S16's:
  • #1 Michigan State, 17
  • #2 Michigan, 12
  • #3 Purdue, 11
  • #4/5 Indiana and Wisconsin, 10
  • #6 Maryland, 9
  • #7 Ohio State, 8
  • #8 Illinois, 6
  • #9/10 Minnesota and Iowa, 3
  • #11 Penn State, 1
  • #12-14 Nebraska, Rutgers, Northwestern, 0
E8's:
  • #1 Michigan State, 10
  • #2 Michigan, 8
  • #3 Ohio State, 5
  • #4/5 Indiana and Wisconsin, 4
  • #6/7 Illinois and Purdue, 3
  • #8/9 Maryland and Minnesota, 2
  • #10 Iowa, 1
  • #11-14 Penn State, Nebraska, Rutgers, Northwestern, 0
F4's:
  • #1 Michigan State, 8
  • #2 Michigan, 5
  • #3/4/5 Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, 3
  • #6/7 Maryland and Illinois, 2
  • #8 Minnesota, 1
  • #9-14 PU, IA, PSU, UNL, RU, NU, 0
NC's:
  • #1-4 MSU, M, IU, UMD, 1
  • #5-14 tOSU, UW, IL, MN, PU, IA, PSU, UNL, RU, NU, 0


medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #179 on: January 31, 2024, 02:53:54 PM »
FWIW, I think it is over.
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2024/01/145207/ohio-state-ad-gene-smith-waiting-to-see-how-season-plays-out-chris-holtmann?amp

 @MaximumSam has noted Smith's public support of Holtmann. I've said all along that meant little to me because AD's pretty much always support their coaches publicly even when they are planning to terminate them or even already meeting with potential replacements behind the scenes.

In this article Gene Smith's public support is tepid. My reading is that if Gene Smith isn't even supporting him publicly that likely means contracts are being discussed with a replacement (or something close to that).

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31077
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #180 on: January 31, 2024, 03:30:17 PM »
Waiting to see how the season plays out? What more needs to be seen?

You start now before anyone else starts.

Lamont Paris just took down Tennessee. His agent's phone will be ringing.

Jobs will likely be opening up in the Big Ten alone.

Michigan, Indiana, Washington, UCLA and USC are not performing to expectations either.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2024, 03:51:50 PM »
Waiting to see how the season plays out? What more needs to be seen?
Exactly!

This start has been so bad that if they won out from here the season as a whole would only be "meh" (23-8/13-7).  Nobody can possibly think that a team that has lost six of seven, got run out of the gym by Northwestern and wasn't particularly competitive in Lincoln or at home against Illinois is going to magically win 10 straight so what are we waiting for?  
You start now before anyone else starts.

Lamont Paris just took down Tennessee. His agent's phone will be ringing.

Jobs will likely be opening up in the Big Ten alone.

Michigan, Indiana, Washington, UCLA and USC are not performing to expectations either.
Exactly!  

I like the idea of pursuing Lamont Paris.  Given his success at USCe, we will not be the only ones calling so make the call early and get working on it.  Upthread Max mentioned that the coach at Ole Miss is a Bjork hire.  He has them 18-3/5-3 at a place that has nine total NCAA appearances and one S16 ever.  

There is always an active carousel every year.  @MaximumSam might still disagree but I don't even think it is a serious debate anymore, Ohio State is going to be in the carousel so lets get a jump on it.  Michigan's program is roughly equal to ours.  They have more recent tournament success but they have less regular season success and less overall historical success generally.  Some coaches might view one job as more preferable, other coaches the other.  Indiana has more historical success than Ohio State but their recent history hasn't been good and it is a higher pressure job because they don't have football to take the spotlight away.  UCLA is a blue blood or close to it (depends who you ask) and is in an attractive LA market along with USC.  

I'm not sure that any of those jobs are indisputably better than Ohio State but I'm not sure that Ohio State's opening is indisputably better than any of them either.  

Plus there is the factor of buzz around the program and excitement.  As I may have pointed out a few times, Ohio State just hosted a top-15 team in an half-empty building.  Some will blame Ohio State's fans but you can't expect people to expend their time and money week after week and year after year to watch these crappy teams.  At least with an Interim there would be SOMETHING exciting to see.  

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.