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Topic: Chris Holtmann

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ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2024, 05:00:20 PM »
I have a theory but it is so radical that it would never get serious consideration.

Shooters have gotten so good that the 50% bonus for a long-range shot is simply too much. The fix is to make a regular shot worth three and a long-range shot worth four. Then the bonus is only 33.3% instead of 50%.

That actually isn't the radical part. The radical part is that, in conjunction with the above, the rim should be raised to 11'. When John Naismith invented the game in 1891 he was 5' 10-1/2" and he was considerably taller than the average American man. My guess is that six footers were rarer at Springfield College in 1891 than seven footers are in today's NBA.

As players got taller and better at jumping the inside game went from trying to get a good shot to just a dunking contest. The three point shot helped but then everybody figured out that 3>2.

At this point the game is largely 3's and dunks but that makes sense because why should you try anything else?

If you cut the long-range bonus to 33.3% and make dunks into something that only a few guys in the league can do then you'll bring back the midrange game, I think.
I also think the court is too small, and we started rewarding taking charges.  So why would you ever drive?  There is barely any room, and as long as a guy can slide over, with zero intention to defend, before you can plant, the foul will be on you

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2024, 05:49:07 PM »
I also think the court is too small, and we started rewarding taking charges.  So why would you ever drive?  There is barely any room, and as long as a guy can slide over, with zero intention to defend, before you can plant, the foul will be on you
As radical as my proposed changes are, this would be an order of magnitude more difficult to institute. 

Changing scoring is easy. Moving the rims up a foot would require some effort and expense but it wouldn't be terribly difficult. Expanding the court would require major building renovations at most arenas and demolition/starting over at other arenas.

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2024, 05:55:30 PM »
So eliminate the short corner threes, and get rid of charges

MaximumSam

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2024, 06:22:01 PM »
The three point shot is the most successful gimmick in sports history. I'm not sure there is any getting rid of it, and if we are talking about changing the sport now I'd start with getting rid of intentional fouling and timeouts. 

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2024, 06:27:00 PM »
The three point shot is the most successful gimmick in sports history. I'm not sure there is any getting rid of it, and if we are talking about changing the sport now I'd start with getting rid of intentional fouling and timeouts.
Elon ending

I think they've done a good job trimming timeouts.  Now get rid of automatic reviews, and tie them all to coaches challenges, with a timeout as the cost for losing it.  And if you are out of timeouts, you can't challenge

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2024, 06:52:36 PM »
Question on getting rid of charging...

Does that make every contact between offense and a defender a blocking foul? Because that won't help the sport much either. 

Or is it going to be more like how defensive pass interference is called in football--there can be a little contact and hand-fighting, you just can't make it egregious? So it's either blocking (if egregious) or no call on anyone if not?

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2024, 06:57:47 PM »
I would take what is now a charging a play on.  95% of charging calls are where a defender is making no attempt to actually play defense.  He looks more like he's trying to block a free kick

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2024, 07:04:51 PM »
I would take what is now a charging a play on.  95% of charging calls are where a defender is making no attempt to actually play defense.  He looks more like he's trying to block a free kick
So an offensive player can simply run over a defensive player?

Or, as something we actually see quite a bit called as charging, an offensive player can lower a shoulder into a defensive player, knock him on his butt, and then pull up for a short jumper?

Or are you saying that you'll keep charging in the rule book, but not call a charge when a player is "looking for the call" in the way that players do now?

I'm not saying getting rid of charging is a bad idea... Just asking some questions logistically how it'll work because I can see a lot of complexities in how it would actually play out in real games...

Edit: Or another one--a post player who just bumps and bumps and bumps a player trying to play good defense, backing him down to score... At some point isn't that charging?

MaximumSam

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2024, 07:21:04 PM »
Elon ending

I think they've done a good job trimming timeouts.  Now get rid of automatic reviews, and tie them all to coaches challenges, with a timeout as the cost for losing it.  And if you are out of timeouts, you can't challenge
I watched a bit of the Elam Ending in The Basketball Tournament. I understand they have used it in the G League, which I haven't seen. I can't say I loved it, though that could be in part that it is so different from anything else that I just wasn't used to it. A clock does make things more exciting, but it could be I'm just very used to a clock. I enjoy soccer and the doofy extra time, so perhaps I could get used to the Elam Ending too. 

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2024, 07:46:02 PM »
So an offensive player can simply run over a defensive player?

Or, as something we actually see quite a bit called as charging, an offensive player can lower a shoulder into a defensive player, knock him on his butt, and then pull up for a short jumper?

Or are you saying that you'll keep charging in the rule book, but not call a charge when a player is "looking for the call" in the way that players do now?

I'm not saying getting rid of charging is a bad idea... Just asking some questions logistically how it'll work because I can see a lot of complexities in how it would actually play out in real games...

Edit: Or another one--a post player who just bumps and bumps and bumps a player trying to play good defense, backing him down to score... At some point isn't that charging?
I would keep charging where the offensive player initiates contact, for the purpose of creating contact.  But if the offensive player is attempting to score, and they can go right through a defender to do so, I'd make that a play on.  If they score, they score, if not, that's the defender doing his job.

NBA refs are much better at recognizing a defender going straight up, which is typically the case.  In college, a defender going straight up, almost always gets called for a foul.  So we've incentivized trying to draw a charge over playing defense.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2024, 10:01:09 AM »
It all comes down to two things: are you getting the talent to succeed relative to expectations, and are you getting the most out of that talent and actually succeeding relative to those same expectations?
FWIW:
I can't find a "talent composite" for BB but I listed class rankings for tOSU upthread:
Exhibit I, Results not matching Recruiting:
Team Recruiting Rankings in the B1G:

  • 2023:  tOSU was #2 behind MSU
  • 2022:  tOSU #1
  • 2021:  tOSU #10 (largely because they only had two commits)
  • 2020:  tOSU #7
  • 2019:  tOSU #1
  • 2018:  tOSU #6
  • 2017:  tOSU #1
So in the last seven years Ohio State has been #1 three times and in the top-2 four times.  They should be one of the better teams in the B1G at least some years and instead, since 2018 they've finished 8th, 7th, 5th, 6th, and 13th and are on pace for another double-digit finish this year. 

Based on that, I think that this is a development/gameday problem not a recruiting problem.  Just eyeballing from those class rankings, Ohio State should be winning B1G Titles or AT LEAST in the mix to get a double-bye (top-4 seed) in the B1G Tournament.  Instead, they haven't gotten a double-bye in the B1G Tournament since Holtmann's first year and they had to play on Wednesday (bottom-4 seed) last year.  This year they are in the mix for another Wednesday start to the B1G Tournament.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2024, 10:05:43 AM »
@ELA and/or @847badgerfan could we move the proposed changes to BB discussion to a separate thread?  I think that it is a good and an interesting discussion but, as I see it, there are two problems with it being in this thread:

  • I would guess that a lot of posters haven't seen it because they are tired of seeing @MaximumSam and I debate Coach Holtmann so they've just ignored this thread.  I created this thread specifically to put it somewhere that those who aren't interested could ignore it.  That is all well and good but now we have a completely unrelated discussion that some of them might be interested in buried deep within this.  
  • It is only tangentially related to the Holtmann discussion so for the posters who ARE interested in THAT discussion it is now buried in a discussion of rim height, the three point shot, charging, and court size.  


847badgerfan

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2024, 10:32:45 AM »
I think we could. I don't know how but maybe @ELA does?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

HailHailMSP

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2024, 11:00:12 AM »
The three point shot is the most successful gimmick in sports history. I'm not sure there is any getting rid of it, and if we are talking about changing the sport now I'd start with getting rid of intentional fouling and timeouts.

The success of the three point shot has also entirely taken away a part of the game that was celebrated two decades ago, the mid-range jumper. 15 - 18ft shots are frowned upon now, both analytically and by most offensive system coaches.

I agree with ELA. Beyond the changes to the game, the court just "feels" small, especially along the baseline. Adding 3-4 ft to baselines would facilitate more freedom of movement, allow for an extension of the three point line on the baselines. 

 

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