Author
Topic: Best Team from Playoff Era
(Read 7113 times)

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #84 on:** December 21, 2022, 02:18:48 PM »

Quote from: Kris60 on December 20, 2022, 01:11:52 PM

I may have rethink what I said previously. The 95 Huskers didn’t have one guy listed at 300 pounds. That really surprised me.

2019 LSU had 17 guys listed at over 300.

I'm not sure of the exact timing. Maybe as an off-season project we could do a year-by-year comparison of the avg weight of O-Linemen on NC teams. That wouldn't be exactly perfect but it would be a pretty good proxy.

I've read that weight-lifting for athletes didn't start until the 1970's or later. Somewhere around there us when some genius figured out that if you stretched before and after lifting you could add bulk without losing flexibility.

My understanding is that, prior to that, weight-lifting was just a vanity thing. Some guys did it to get a bulky look, but they weren't remotely athletic in that they'd pull a muscle if they tried to move much.

Consequently, in the old days conditioning was basically just running.

Another factor is specialization.

LeBron James is a great example of this. When he was a freshman in HS he played WR on his HS Football team. In fact, he was good enough that Jim Tressel was recruiting him to play football at Ohio State. Then he dropped football to concentrate on his best sport, basketball.

I think that if LeBron had been born 30 or 40 years earlier he'd have been a somewhat less impressive basketball player but he'd have been a multi-sport player like Bo Jackson or Dieon Sanders as probably a WR on the football team in the fall and an outfielder on the baseball team in spring as well as his winter basketball.

That just doesn't happen today due to specialization. Kids who appear to be elite athletes get funneled into their best sport at progressively younger ages and then do workout routines that are tailored to their position within their sport. Then they do camps but today's football camps aren't even full-team deals, they are split into position groups.

Realistically the average freshman at a P5 school today probably shows up more polished both physically and mentally than the average departing Senior from 50 years ago.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #85 on:** December 21, 2022, 02:26:48 PM »

Easily.
Linemen way back in the day weren't any bigger than the ball-carriers behind them (with obvious exceptions), they were just slow runners. Or they couldn't catch. Couldn't juke a guy. Couldn't impress in the "broken field" (their favorite phrase back then).

FearlessF · « **Reply #86 on:** December 21, 2022, 02:30:41 PM »

Boyd Epley, godfather of collegiate strength training

Coach Devaney hired me on September 15th, 1969. We didn’t go to a bowl game in ‘67 or ‘68, but in ‘69 we had good success and won 9 games and went to the Sun Bowl. We beat Georgia, got some momentum and then won the national championship the next year.

And Coach Osborne said, “Alright, Boyd, we need to go in and see the boss.” And I go, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ”We need to go in and see Bob Devaney and get permission to do all of this.” So we go around the corner into Bob Devaney’s office there in the Coliseum, located up on the second floor -that office is now John Cook’s office- there was a big seal, the Nebraska State Seal on the wall above Devaney’s desk, and Devaney’s at his desk and he’s sitting there in his red, leather chair. I remember it like yesterday, I remember where I stood and where Osborne stood, and where Devaney was sitting, and Coach Osborne explained to Devaney, the athletic director and head coach, who I was.

Bob said, ”I’ve seen Boyd when he’s in the weightroom. You’re a pole vaulter, right?” I said I was. He said Tom told him that I was helping the injured players get stronger and that Tom thought it would be a good idea if the entire team lifted weights and if I’d be willing to help teach them. And Bob says, “Why would you want to do that?” So I was faced with the prospect of having to defend my program, and I’d never had to do that before. So here I was trying to explain to him that it would make the players stronger and faster, and it would help them win more games, and he said, “Well, if Tom thinks this is important, we’ll give it a try.” And then he looked me right in the eye and pointed at me and says, “But if anybody gets slower, you’re fired.” But I wasn’t really hired yet! (laughs) I was still an athlete, but it was during that time period that I had injured my back. And I don’t know if it was Devaney or the trainers or what, but they kind of told me I couldn’t pole vault anymore because Devaney wanted me to be the strength coach. And magically I started getting paid $2 an hour to watch the weightroom instead of having my scholarship. They saw to it that I got paid for supervising instead of being on scholarship and being on pole vault, they said it was too great of a risk.

Then after the first year Coach Devaney called me in and said, “You’re the best value we have in this department,” and he gave me a raise that made me feel pretty good. Of course I was making two dollars an hour, so it didn’t have to be much. (laughs)

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #87 on:** December 21, 2022, 06:18:08 PM »

Has the playoff era sort of rubbed the shine off of the past mythical NCs? In that the 1 seed rarely wins the NC since we've had a playoff?
Is that simply what made it mythical?
Do you think past NCs had that special something that made them champs or that they did well and happened to finish at the top? I know it depends for each individual case, but do you believe there's a trend either way?

Cincydawg · « **Reply #88 on:** December 21, 2022, 06:41:48 PM »

Nebraska scorched UGA that year in a bowl game and Vince was made aware of "strength training", which UGA did not really have yet. Nebbie did.

I knew some football players at UGA in the mid 1970s and they looked like large fairly normal types, not someone who would stand out in a crowd. I played volleyball with some of them one quarter. Nice guys, athletic, but not huge. One I recall was the tight end, starter, Richard Applebie.

I think he later started some chain restaurant...

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #89 on:** December 22, 2022, 10:36:53 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 21, 2022, 02:26:48 PM

Easily.
Linemen way back in the day weren't any bigger than the ball-carriers behind them (with obvious exceptions), they were just slow runners. Or they couldn't catch. Couldn't juke a guy. Couldn't impress in the "broken field" (their favorite phrase back then).

Les Miles was a OL for Michigan, if that tells you anything. I'm pretty sure I outweigh him now, not sure about his playing weight, but he couldn't have been big.

Then there's guys who go in reverse. Have y'all seen any pictures of Alan Faneca lately? Holy crap.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #90 on:** December 22, 2022, 10:45:29 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 21, 2022, 02:26:48 PM

Easily.
Linemen way back in the day weren't any bigger than the ball-carriers behind them (with obvious exceptions), they were just slow runners. Or they couldn't catch. Couldn't juke a guy. Couldn't impress in the "broken field" (their favorite phrase back then).

King Barry's 1993 Rose Bowl champion OL were 295, 290, 300, 300 and 315 and stood between 6-2 and 6-6.

Brent Moss was 5-9, 205 and Terrell Fletcher was 5-9, 195.

I'd say the switch really flipped in the 1960/70's WRT huge linemen.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #91 on:** December 22, 2022, 10:47:35 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 21, 2022, 06:18:08 PM

Has the playoff era sort of rubbed the shine off of the past mythical NCs? In that the 1 seed rarely wins the NC since we've had a playoff?
Is that simply what made it mythical?
Do you think past NCs had that special something that made them champs or that they did well and happened to finish at the top? I know it depends for each individual case, but do you believe there's a trend either way?

No luster has been lost for past champions for me. If anything, I tend to view them equally as favorably because they represent what the sport is supposed to be about imo, the best season. It wasn't perfect, but it was close enough. When I use the term "mythical" I mean it in the sense that who the hell knows if they were the "best" team....but they were the team who had the best season. Good enough for me.

As the playoff expands it will get somewhat more like the NFL (though never completely because college remains Haves and Have-Nots in a way the NFL has too much parity for), with teams having "okay" seasons will probably snag a few NCs here and there. I still argue that despite the allure of a playoff for an average fan, it doesn't produce any more of a meaningful champion than any of the old systems. A playoff does not guarantee us a "best" team. It just guarantees a playoff winner.

Think of 2019 (because I remember the field that year). LSU beats OU, Clemson beats Ohio State, LSU beats Clemson. Does that mean LSU would've beaten Ohio State? Maybe, maybe not. Does it even mean Clemson could beat OU? Maybe, maybe not. LSU was a playoff champion, not some provably "best" team for the year.

The only thing I've ever thought of that would make me feel confident about crowning a "best" team is to have a round-robin style playoff amongst the contenders and the team with the best record is the "best." But obviously that's impossible for many reasons, and we're always going to have a mythical "best" team as far as I'm concerned.

All that said, I don't view current playoff champions as somehow lesser because the emphasis of the goal has changed. It's fine. I think the old champions are deserving and the new ones are too. Everybody has a system set before them at the beginning of the season, you know the rules and you know what you gotta do. The teams that do it, more power to 'em, they're the champs.

rolltidefan · « **Reply #92 on:** December 22, 2022, 11:37:34 AM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on December 22, 2022, 10:45:29 AM

King Barry's 1993 Rose Bowl champion OL were 295, 290, 300, 300 and 315 and stood between 6-2 and 6-6.

Brent Moss was 5-9, 205 and Terrell Fletcher was 5-9, 195.

I'd say the switch really flipped in the 1960/70's WRT huge linemen.

it's probably cyclical like everything else. that's not to say players aren't bigger/faster than ever right now, but the relative size probably waxed and waned throughout the years. just in the last decade, the linebacker position has changed. in 00's, bigger and stockier was better, and speed was just a bonus. now, speed is paramount, must be able to cover passes.

bama got its mascot from some of the players in the 1920's being considered "elephants". i'm guessing they weren't 300#s, but they were obviously quite large relative to their peers.

but people in general, and athletes included, are getting bigger, taller, heavier, faster, etc. a lot of that is due to technology, improvements and better understanding of nutrition and training/exercise, equipment, etc. but it's also appears to be just part of the natural evolution of humans at this time.

rolltidefan · « **Reply #93 on:** December 22, 2022, 11:45:05 AM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on December 22, 2022, 10:47:35 AM

No luster has been lost for past champions for me. If anything, I tend to view them equally as favorably because they represent what the sport is supposed to be about imo, the best season. It wasn't perfect, but it was close enough. When I use the term "mythical" I mean it in the sense that who the hell knows if they were the "best" team....but they were the team who had the best season. Good enough for me.

As the playoff expands it will get somewhat more like the NFL (though never completely because college remains Haves and Have-Nots in a way the NFL has too much parity for), with teams having "okay" seasons will probably snag a few NCs here and there. I still argue that despite the allure of a playoff for an average fan, it doesn't produce any more of a meaningful champion than any of the old systems. A playoff does not guarantee us a "best" team. It just guarantees a playoff winner.

Think of 2019 (because I remember the field that year). LSU beats OU, Clemson beats Ohio State, LSU beats Clemson. Does that mean LSU would've beaten Ohio State? Maybe, maybe not. Does it even mean Clemson could beat OU? Maybe, maybe not. LSU was a playoff champion, not some provably "best" team for the year.

The only thing I've ever thought of that would make me feel confident about crowning a "best" team is to have a round-robin style playoff amongst the contenders and the team with the best record is the "best." But obviously that's impossible for many reasons, and we're always going to have a mythical "best" team as far as I'm concerned.

All that said, I don't view current playoff champions as somehow lesser because the emphasis of the goal has changed. It's fine. I think the old champions are deserving and the new ones are too. Everybody has a system set before them at the beginning of the season, you know the rules and you know what you gotta do. The teams that do it, more power to 'em, they're the champs.

agree with this.

take this year for example. with a 12 team format, bama is likely in. but i don't know anyone, including (most) bama fans, that think bama is remotely close to the best team this season. and certainly not the team with the best season. but i can absolutely envision this bama team hitting a streak of good play and winning a playoff. unlikely, but nowhere near impossible.

also, the playoff doesn't remove any argument. it just moves it down a peg to who should be in. not to suggest either way is better/worse, or good/bad. the argument is part of the fun, imo.

fun question, though.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #94 on:** December 22, 2022, 01:14:38 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on December 22, 2022, 10:45:29 AM

King Barry's 1993 Rose Bowl champion OL were 295, 290, 300, 300 and 315 and stood between 6-2 and 6-6.

Brent Moss was 5-9, 205 and Terrell Fletcher was 5-9, 195.

I'd say the switch really flipped in the 1960/70's WRT huge linemen.

Yeah, "way back" meant like 40s, 50s, 60s.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #95 on:** December 22, 2022, 01:18:18 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on December 22, 2022, 10:47:35 AM

No luster has been lost for past champions for me. If anything, I tend to view them equally as favorably because they represent what the sport is supposed to be about imo, the best season. It wasn't perfect, but it was close enough. When I use the term "mythical" I mean it in the sense that who the hell knows if they were the "best" team....but they were the team who had the best season. Good enough for me.

I just don't see it that way.
The voters were basically crap salad the further back you go. WHEN you lost was as important as WHO you lost to and by how much.
It's only in the last 20 years or so that the when mattered less. Before that, a team could have a much worse loss early in the season and go 11-1 and beat out another 11-1 team for the NC. Even if the other team's loss was better, if it was later in the year, tough shit.
.
Now if you meant "best season" = "navigated the reality of the situation" then sure, that works. But the situation back in the day was verrrrrrry limited.

Brutus Buckeye · « **Reply #96 on:** December 28, 2022, 09:48:11 PM »

It's funny that TCU's the first Texas team to make it to the playoffs. It's not like it's some year one fluke. We're almost ten years deep into this thing.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #97 on:** December 28, 2022, 09:50:34 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on December 28, 2022, 09:48:11 PM

It's funny that TCU's the first Texas team to make it to the playoffs. It's not like it's some year one fluke. We're almost ten years deep into this thing.

Could we say they were the closest before this year too? I guess it would be them or 2020 A&M.

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Topic: Best Team from Playoff Era

medinabuckeye1

Re: Best Team from Playoff Era

OrangeAfroMan

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FearlessF

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OrangeAfroMan

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Cincydawg

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MikeDeTiger

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847badgerfan

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MikeDeTiger

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rolltidefan

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rolltidefan

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OrangeAfroMan

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OrangeAfroMan

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Brutus Buckeye

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bayareabadger

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