header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Best #25

 (Read 6631 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 38520
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2018, 11:03:35 PM »
Let's take Rozier, since his YPC only went up with addition carries from year to year.  

1983 - Rozier has the most carries and a 7.8 ypc.  Gill, the QB, is excluded from this, because that's a different position and QB's rushing averages tend to be lower.  But UNL had Jeff Smith run the ball and Mark Schellen.  One of those might be a FB, but whatever.
Mark Schellen was a 5'10 225 lb Fullback - averaged 5.8 on 77 carries in 83 with 9 TDs.
The story was his straight line explosiveness.  Was supposedly the only Husker to beat Fryer in sprints in practice.  Not often, but more than once.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 19199
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2018, 11:25:38 PM »
the problem is that we are talking about individuals
and as you said, there's absolutely no way to know, regardless of stats
with any guy on the list, his next carry could be a 3 yard loss or a 73 yard gain
way too many variables, such as play calling, quality of opposing defense, field position
Right, too many variables to make a wild guess, so we adhere to the overall trend.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 38520
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2018, 09:06:37 AM »
you are a wild man
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 26129
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2018, 09:13:50 AM »
Had Gordon played in the 4th against UNL, he probably would have had that 73 yard gain.

And he'd still have the record that the kid from OU got from playing in the 4th the following week.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 38520
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2018, 09:44:38 AM »
agreed, but he may have also blown out a knee

the coaching staff was smart

game was in hand

and the 2nd string needs a few treats to keep them motivated and sharp
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12512
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2018, 12:57:03 PM »
We have no way to tell among these individuals.  But the more data you collect, the clearer the picture is - the higher the volume, at some unknown tipping point, you start to regress to the mean.
I just don't think it's remotely that simple. 
I don't think these other backs have higher ypc BECAUSE they have lower attempts. I think they have higher ypc because they were used differently than "volume" backs.
Not all carries are the same. As I tried to point out when you look at, say, Darren McFadden vs Felix Jones. The two players were on the team for three years alongside each other, but McFadden had ~2x the carries as Jones, yet Jones had ~2 ypc higher than McFadden.
If Jones consistently got higher ypc perhaps one would easily claim that it was ludicrous to give McFadden twice as many carries, right? Because by your rationale, you should reduce McFadden's workload which will make his ypc go up, and increase Jones' workload until his ypc regresses to equal McFadden's at a reduced workload. 
What coach--making millions of dollars--can't figure this simple math out???
I'm saying that there's a reason you STILL give McFadden more carries despite lower ypc. Because they're different backs with different skill sets. Football is a situational game, and giving McFadden a first-down Power run is a carry he's more suited to than Jones. Giving Jones a pitch to the edge on 3rd-and-8 when the defense has to respect the pass is a carry he's more suited to than McFadden. I'd say the average ypc (but also higher variance) of that pitch is higher than the average ypc of the Power, but in most pro-style offenses you run Power more often than a sweep.
So your volume backs will naturally get different types of carries than your COP backs, and usually more of them. 
There's no "regression to the mean" here. There's situational football and backs being used in different ways.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 38520
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2018, 01:25:28 PM »

There's no "regression to the mean" here. There's situational football and backs being used in different ways.
Ed Zachery
this is not baseball - moneyball
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Entropy

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1435
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2018, 01:39:02 PM »
and systems change too...   stats in the 80's or 90's don't translate to today's game

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7948
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2018, 02:04:47 PM »
I understand what you're saying
if I follow, then if Rozier would have had fewer carries, his ypc would have been 8 or 9?
if it's simple statistics then why wouldn't the average, be the average, and bear out for more carries?
If Ron Dayne had fewer carries his average would be higher?  not sure how that works
so if you take Dayne's frosh, soph, junior and senior season, the season with the least carries should have the highest average and the season with the most carries should produce the lowest average?
so if Rozier would have regressed to the mean, please tell me what Rozier's "mean" was
So this has gotten weird, but because I’m a big ole nerd, it’s worth pointing out system factors in with Rozier, as do the kinds of carries.
Obviously don’t have a breakdown, but in the old Nebraska system, your I-backs were an interesting combo of downhill power guys, but also top edge players because they’re the ones catching pitches when the edge has been somewhat cleared. It factors more with true triple teams, but might be an element there. 
Cory Schlesinger (sp) averaged a 1.2 more YPC than Phillips in 1994. If the carries were switched, it probably doesn’t hold becuase most of hit runs are traps with an option fake over them. 
(Someone brought up Arkansas’ Jones and McFadden. I’m guessing that split was likely rooted in system as well. Jones was used as more of an edge guy. Teams tend to go edge in more favorable spots, so the upside is higher. And when they went Wildcat, McFadden was often the one running toward the box, win Jones toward the edge)

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7948
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2018, 02:14:49 PM »
It is an assertion, but one that is pretty much universally held in the coaching ranks. The constant stream of ejections for what used to be considered fair hits lends additional credence, but YMMV.

Additionally, I would note that if you watch them play its apparent that Wisco uses plentiful numbers of 1-back and shotgun formations, like most everybody else. They lean on the FB lead plays more than most to be sure, but days of Wisco making its living off Ron Dayne on the OZ pitch from 12/21P are long gone. The Badgerz offense is fairly multiple these days.

This isn’t a knock on Melvin or J Taylor or anybody else, but just a nod to the obvious; the game has changed substantially since many of the backs on your list were toting the rock for their respective schools. Receivers from the 60s no doubt live in envy of Tim Brown or Desmond Howard’s now-archaic reception numbers!

They might not be as pure OZ toss as they once were, but it would not be so correct to say the distributon of power sets is like most other teams. 
In standard downs, UW is mostly 12 and 21, primarily the I, a two-tight end double wing that gets multiple and their jet formation with two tight ends to the jet side. They used to be power/IZ/pin and pull, but have done more OZ and a ton more counter/lead power in recent years. And God they run a lot in those spots.
They used to only go to the gun as a a passing set win a few change-up runs. Now they’ve expanded the running package from the gun, but still rarely do it. 
(There was a clear starter/COP gap in 2016. In 2017, Chris James was that, but also a middling reserve main back and Ibrahim just isn’t that good a runner. I hope Grochek can be a thing becuase Shaw is not great)

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 19199
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2018, 07:49:02 PM »
I just don't think it's remotely that simple.
I don't think these other backs have higher ypc BECAUSE they have lower attempts. I think they have higher ypc because they were used differently than "volume" backs.
Not all carries are the same. As I tried to point out when you look at, say, Darren McFadden vs Felix Jones. The two players were on the team for three years alongside each other, but McFadden had ~2x the carries as Jones, yet Jones had ~2 ypc higher than McFadden.
If Jones consistently got higher ypc perhaps one would easily claim that it was ludicrous to give McFadden twice as many carries, right? Because by your rationale, you should reduce McFadden's workload which will make his ypc go up, and increase Jones' workload until his ypc regresses to equal McFadden's at a reduced workload.
What coach--making millions of dollars--can't figure this simple math out???
I'm saying that there's a reason you STILL give McFadden more carries despite lower ypc. Because they're different backs with different skill sets. Football is a situational game, and giving McFadden a first-down Power run is a carry he's more suited to than Jones. Giving Jones a pitch to the edge on 3rd-and-8 when the defense has to respect the pass is a carry he's more suited to than McFadden. I'd say the average ypc (but also higher variance) of that pitch is higher than the average ypc of the Power, but in most pro-style offenses you run Power more often than a sweep.
So your volume backs will naturally get different types of carries than your COP backs, and usually more of them.
There's no "regression to the mean" here. There's situational football and backs being used in different ways.
You’re right.  BayareaBadger is right.  And I’m right.  
Let me see how to put this...we’ve got a player talent bell curve on top of a play-calling bell curve on top of a playing time bell curve.
But a simple thing to take away from it all would be something simple and direct - like if Darren McFadden had 1,200 Carrie in his career, his YPC avg would be lower.  Regardless of play calls or what quarter, etc.  it’s a statistical near-certainty.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12512
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2018, 12:08:41 AM »
But a simple thing to take away from it all would be something simple and direct - like if Darren McFadden had 1,200 Carrie in his career, his YPC avg would be lower.  Regardless of play calls or what quarter, etc.  it’s a statistical near-certainty.  

Why? If McFadden got Jones' playcalls in addition to his own, why would you assume his ypc would decrease?
I'd say his ypc would increase if his usage expanded to include the types of plays Jones was featured in.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 19199
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2018, 12:59:08 AM »
Because he's a human man.  Why are there backups at all?  It's not a trick question.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12512
  • Liked:
Re: Best #25
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2018, 01:18:31 PM »
Because he's a human man.  Why are there backups at all?  It's not a trick question.
Why did Tim Tebow, Chris Leak's "backup", get playing time as a freshman? Because he was used on playcalls that weren't well-suited to Leak's strengths.
Why did McFadden and Jones occasionally take direct snaps in the "Wild Hog" playcalls instead of snapping the ball to a QB? Because the playcalls called for some skill sets that Arkansas' QB didn't have.
Why is it so hard to accept that there is no "mean" to be regressed to. Different players get different playcalls. If McFadden was running the same plays that Felix Jones was running, it's conceivable to think that his ypc would actually go UP rather than down. 

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.