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Topic: basketball scandal...

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Mdot21

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2017, 04:12:05 PM »

The only reason we know about this (waste of time and resources) case, is because it involves major college basketball.    Believe me, this case is very small potatoes in terms of time and resources.  It is though very very high profile, which may very well incentivize the government for obvious reasons. It will likely succeed though in shining one bright light on this activity, acknowledging that nobody has a problem with Adidas paying school ABC $100 million bucks over x years for the brand rights, but somehow we're all supposed to lose our minds over these kinds of bribes.
Amen.
Get rid of the amateurism rules and let adidas or nike sign contracts with the kids if they are 18 or with their parents/guardians if they are minors.

847badgerfan

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2017, 04:33:35 PM »
If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.

I know I would. I hate the NFL.

The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.

Pretty simple.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

ELA

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2017, 04:36:48 PM »
If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.

I know I would. I hate the NFL.

The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.

Pretty simple.
Baseball is the only sport that gets it right, both from the rule about declaring for the draft, and having a viable minor league.  I get why the NFL doesn't have a legit minor league, with all the injury risk.
But for hoops, they could have a viable D-League, and adopt the MLB Draft rule, and I think everyone would benefit.

Mdot21

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2017, 04:44:10 PM »
If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.

I know I would. I hate the NFL.

The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.

Pretty simple.
No they wouldn't. Where is the evidence for that statement? Your own personal bias? You're one person. You might care a lot. But I'd bet that millions of people wouldn't give two shits if they ended amateurism. They are still going to love their teams. The die-hards will still die-hard. Alabama fans and Texas fans and Ohio State fans won't stop supporting their favorite football team.

This scandal hit about college basketball recruiting. The NBA has a minor league. The sports are just so different. The incentive for the programs/shoe companies to entice a 5* hot-shot is just so much greater in basketball than it is in football. One or two great players can make an entire program in basketball. One or two great players isn't making a program in football- it takes a village full of really good players to have a successful program in football. Also- NBA stars have their own shoes- they sell lots of sneakers. NFL stars don't. The shoe companies want to get their hooks in potential future NBA stars as early as possible. People line up to buy the shoes that Kobe Bryant or LeBron James or James Harden are wearing- they aren't buying the latest cleats that Julio Jones or Antonio Brown just wore.

grillrat

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2017, 05:05:31 PM »
OK, soapbox time.

I would not have a problem With kids singing a shoe contract if you could ensure that absolutely positively the school is not involved in any way.....which would not happen.

I know I am in the minority on this one, but I still believe that students should not be compensated.  Yes, the university is making money off of the student, but the student is getting 1) Free education 2)  Free Food  3) TV exposure of their skills 4) Free tutoring 5) Free clothes, and frankly, those are the financial benefits alone.  There are plenty of other benefits that are obtained sociably that go beyond what the school itself provides (Let's call it "perks" and leave it at that).

Even just keeping with the financial portion, for example, for a non-resident of Michigan, estimated costs per year for attendance at Michigan University is roughly $65,000.  I think people keep losing perspective about that.  $65,000 is $10,000 more than the median annual income of an American male with a bachelors degree.  As a football player, you are going to school and earning a degree while playing football, and getting 10 grand more than someone who has already graduated.

The argument always proceeds to:  "Yeah, the kids get their scholarship, but that is peanuts compared to the amount of money the university brings in."  Which is a true statement, but one that completely ignores everything it takes to put that product on the field.

Ultimately, yes, there would be no football without the players.  But you know what, there would be no football without the guy who paints the lines on the grass too.  Same thing with the medical staff, trainers, office staff, equipment staffs, custodians, food vendors, ushers, broadcasting technicians (not the networks, the guys from the school who set up the infrastructure so that ESPN can come in and set up to broadcast the game with minimal effort), chefs, ticket sales workers, groundkeepers, the guy who changes the burned out lightbulbs in the stadium lights, program printers, logistics managers, transportation directors, bus drivers, compliance guys, coordinators, and a thousand other jobs it takes just so that those 85 kids can line up and knock their heads together every Saturday in the fall. 

It's a huge, incredibly complex system, and everybody gets paid to do it.  Why should the athletes get a bigger piece than what they are already getting "paid" when it already exceeds likely 90% of what everybody else just listed gets?

Letting a kid have a shoe contract is all well and good, but you KNOW that as soon as they let that genie out of the bottle, the bigger schools will be able to sell recruits on the fact that "if you sign with us, we will get you set up with a shoe contract lickety-split".  Don't even bother denying it.  It would happen.  That is a recruiting advantage that small schools could not keep up with and they would never get a 4* recruit ever again.  The shoe companies would fall over themselves to pour money at every QB, RB, and WR who singed with a helmet school, regardless if that player ever even saw the field or not.

And you know the day would come where A) Shoe company gives player money, B) Player goes out and breaks his ankle in game 2, C) Shoe company rescinds contract and demands their money back, D) Player sues the school because "he couldn't pivot on their crappy field turf" or "the band director let the tuba player on to the field too early and I ran into him".  The longer that we can keep money out of the picture in regards to athletes performance at the university level, the longer we can avoid stupid crap like that happening.

I know it's naïve to think that this isn't somewhat happening already, but everyone saying "it's going to be that way eventually" doesn't mean it isn't wrong and something that needs to be fought against.

[/soapbox]


Brutus Buckeye

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2017, 05:08:05 PM »
No they wouldn't. Where is the evidence for that statement? Your own personal bias? You're one person. You might care a lot. But I'd bet that millions of people wouldn't give two shits if they ended amateurism. They are still going to love their teams. The die-hards will still die-hard. Alabama fans and Texas fans and Ohio State fans won't stop supporting their favorite football team.

This scandal hit about college basketball recruiting. The NBA has a minor league. The sports are just so different. The incentive for the programs/shoe companies to entice a 5* hot-shot is just so much greater in basketball than it is in football. One or two great players can make an entire program in basketball. One or two great players isn't making a program in football- it takes a village full of really good players to have a successful program in football. Also- NBA stars have their own shoes- they sell lots of sneakers. NFL stars don't. The shoe companies want to get their hooks in potential future NBA stars as early as possible. People line up to buy the shoes that Kobe Bryant or LeBron James or James Harden are wearing- they aren't buying the latest cleats that Julio Jones or Antonio Brown just wore.
Yeah, Nobody watches NCAA DIII CFB, where the kids actually go to class. 
People say they want true amateurism with their lips, but their eyes are watching nothing but P5. 

847badgerfan

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2017, 05:11:27 PM »
OK, soapbox time.

I would not have a problem With kids singing a shoe contract if you could ensure that absolutely positively the school is not involved in any way.....which would not happen.

I know I am in the minority on this one
No, you are not. It depends on the group to whom you compare yourself.

You're an alum. I'm an alum.

Not every fan is that. And, in general, those are the fans who don't care about paying players based on the "million" conversations I've had with fans across the country, in my football travels.

Alums do care. Alums give money too. Like, the vast majority of it.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MaximumSam

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2017, 05:18:07 PM »
Hard to have much respect for a system that spends more time figuring out ways to prevent young people from profiting off their own work than it does well, anything else.  The sense entitlement put on display by NCAA types is kind of gross.

grillrat

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
THEY RECEIVE A SCHOLARSHIP!!!!

It's not like this is slave labor.  They are compensated appropriately.

MrNubbz

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2017, 05:30:00 PM »
admittedly have not paid attention to any of this- what is the federal crime being broken? G

You know, there are far more serious things like organized crime- the mafia still exists ya know, gangs like ms13 and the crips and the bloods, drug trafficking, human trafficking, murder, extortion, political/gov't corruption, corporate greed/corruption, wall street/banking scams and corruption- all sorts of good stuff for the FBI to work on.
If they'd actually show they are serious this would be their focus
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

ELA

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2017, 05:33:11 PM »
No, you are not. It depends on the group to whom you compare yourself.

You're an alum. I'm an alum.

Not every fan is that. And, in general, those are the fans who don't care about paying players based on the "million" conversations I've had with fans across the country, in my football travels.

Alums do care. Alums give money too. Like, the vast majority of it.
That's where I'm at, if it's between the shoe companies or EA Sports and the kids profiting off themselves, cool.

When some car salesman in Norman, OK offers to pay a kid $100,000 to come sign autographs for an hour, wink, wink, is the problem with going in that direction.

I don't mind the kids getting paid.  I do mind it turning into a bidding war between boosters.  If I want to watch that, that's the NFL.  I'm not simply going to watch a lesser version of that.  For the same reason I don't watch D3 college football, it's a lesser version of FBS football.  If NCAA football wants to go the full on NFL route, I'm sure they will be fine, but I have no interest in watching the lesser version of professional football.

Entropy

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2017, 05:52:57 PM »
If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.

I know I would. I hate the NFL.

The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.

Pretty simple.
agree.. I wish minor leagues would be available and move CF Div 1 to basically Div 1A.   Else, you'll have a free for all because a salary cap won't work.  Universities cheat now.  They'll cheat then too

And yes.. that probably means the big TV money goes with the minor league teams.  
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 05:56:19 PM by Entropy »

MarqHusker

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2017, 12:19:02 AM »
admittedly have not paid attention to any of this- what is the federal crime being broken? Got to be tax evasion. Wouldn't the IRS and not the FBI investigate that?
MDot, i didn't mean to dismiss the first part of your post here, regarding what federal crime is actually being broken.  I rather dismissively said it was obviously 'wire fraud' and wire fraud conspiracy, in addition to bribery and money laundering.
It's actually a seldom used, dare I say novel approach by the DOJ.  As I noted earlier, the Government is asserting that the victims here are the Schools.  The argument suggests the bribe, deprived the School of the proper use of its resources (the use of scholarship monies as they deemed appropriate) because the players are ineligible, because of the bribe.    
This is called (by the Gov't) 'honest services' fraud.*  It's kind of a new law (late 80s) and has been criticized by many.  Supreme Court actually narrowed its reach a few years ago.   It was mainly passed as law to provide a weapon against public corruption.   This case is by no means a slam dunk, not because these things didn't happen, but whether these events constitute a federal crime, specifically
it must be a "fraudulent scheme(s) to deprive another of honest services through bribes or kickbacks supplied by a third party who ha not been deceived"

These guys who are getting fired, aren't going to get their jobs back, but it is certainly not a total lock that the defendants will either be convicted, or even if convicted, that the convictions will be upheld.  There will likely be some pretty good arguments to attack the statute (again).   No need to get into the rabbit hole of how a Court applies its reasonably foreseeable economic harm test.  blah blah blah blah.  Of course, we'll all be five years older by the time any of these criminal matters are disposed of at an appellate level.

*I know all this because I wrote a law school paper about the statute it during the Enron scandal and later it led to the conviction of Jeffrey Skilling, CEO of Enron under this law, as well as Gov. Ryan of Illinois among other Ill Governors (Blago).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:25:01 AM by MarqHusker »

MaximumSam

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Re: basketball scandal...
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2017, 09:16:51 AM »
THEY RECEIVE A SCHOLARSHIP!!!!

It's not like this is slave labor.  They are compensated appropriately.

Don't forget the snacks!

 

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