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Topic: Basketball Coaching Carousel
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bayareabadger · « **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2023, 12:07:29 PM »

Quote from: ELA on February 12, 2023, 12:45:34 PM

Agreed. MSU only scheduled 4 mid-majors this year (Northern Arizona, Brown, Oakland, Buffalo)

We played a 5th, but only because Portland upset Villanova, so we wound up playing them, not Villanova, in the 5th place game in our holiday tournament.

MSU always gets credit for playing a tough schedule, but in the last year of the 16 game Big Ten schedule (2007), MSU still had 12 mid-majors scheduled. They went into Big Ten play 13-2, and unranked.

I was gonna try to give them credit for BYU. But that BYU was not now BYU.

UW was at 10 Mid-Majors that year, though two were very good and probably projected that way.

In short, there's just less bodybag games than their once were.

ELA · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2023, 12:43:37 PM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on February 13, 2023, 12:07:29 PM

I was gonna try to give them credit for BYU. But that BYU was not now BYU.

UW was at 10 Mid-Majors that year, though two were very good and probably projected that way.

In short, there's just less bodybag games than their once were.

That BYU team actually wound up going 25-9 overall, 13-3 to win the MWC title, and finishing #24 in the polls. So it actually wound up being a decent win, but wasn't really scheduled as much. They were coming off a 1st round NIT exit, and had gong 9-21 the year before that. That 2007 BYU team was the start of a run of 8 NCAA tourneys in 9 years, including a Sweet 16, but I'm not going to credit them for scheduling that one.

But even if you do, the point largely stands. The games most teams have dropped in going from 16 to 20, have been the bodybag games.

I also think the number of quality holiday tournaments has expanded. Back then, there was Maui, and I guess the Preseason NIT was still decent, but that was about it. IIRC, Alaska had already fallen off, and Atlantis, Vegas, Orlando and the Nike tournaments didn't exist yet

bayareabadger · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2023, 03:03:37 PM »

Quote from: ELA on February 13, 2023, 12:43:37 PM

That BYU team actually wound up going 25-9 overall, 13-3 to win the MWC title, and finishing #24 in the polls. So it actually wound up being a decent win, but wasn't really scheduled as much. They were coming off a 1st round NIT exit, and had gong 9-21 the year before that. That 2007 BYU team was the start of a run of 8 NCAA tourneys in 9 years, including a Sweet 16, but I'm not going to credit them for scheduling that one.

But even if you do, the point largely stands. The games most teams have dropped in going from 16 to 20, have been the bodybag games.

I also think the number of quality holiday tournaments has expanded. Back then, there was Maui, and I guess the Preseason NIT was still decent, but that was about it. IIRC, Alaska had already fallen off, and Atlantis, Vegas, Orlando and the Nike tournaments didn't exist yet

Yeah, my rule of thumb for gaging mid-major quality is the year before/brand. Like the recent vintage of BYU, you probably get credit for unless they’re coming off a mediocre year. But even a good Winthrop is a little tricky.

Then there’s in-state stuff. Cincinnati is never a body bag. Neither is Marquette. Oakland probably always is, even if some of those teams are pretty good.

It seems like it’s hurt some of your good not great mid-majors or low majors. Like it is harder for a school like a Belmont to get a buy game.

ELA · « **Reply #45 on:** February 13, 2023, 03:21:37 PM »

Oakland frequently gives MSU fits.

Actually, MSU did play Belmont that year, but that's before Byrd really got things going.

Even though that wasn't a great Vermont team, maybe partial credit for scheduling them coming off 3 straight tourney appearances, including an upset of Syracuse

CatsbyAZ · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2023, 12:04:22 PM »

Quote from: MaximumSam on February 12, 2023, 10:44:03 AM

Yeah, agree here. Also, the transfer portal would seem to push all the talent towards the mean. Sort of like how the Big Ten has ten teams of basically the same quality.

Was noticing this as well the other day - the outsized midsections of certain conferences - but I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the college basketball landscape to assess whether this is something new or has been happening for a while. Or why this might be happening if this is indeed a trend.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2023, 01:04:27 PM »

Quote from: CatsbyAZ on February 15, 2023, 12:04:22 PM

Was noticing this as well the other day - the outsized midsections of certain conferences - but I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the college basketball landscape to assess whether this is something new or has been happening for a while. Or why this might be happening if this is indeed a trend.

I think it is too early to say if it is a trend or not but it sure is unusual. Right now we have:

One really good team, Purdue.
Two really bad teams, tOSU and MN.
11 roughly equivalent teams in the middle. These 11 are all currently within four games of each other.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 18, 2023, 07:23:47 PM »

@MaximumSam , at what point will you acknowledge that this is much worse than the type of rebuilding/transitional years that all programs occasionally face?

The MSU game saw tOSU's lowest scoring output in 27 years.

The current stretch is the worst in a quarter century.

This is literally the worst Ohio State basketball team in a generation.

That *MIGHT* be acceptable if the coach had accumulated some goodwill and earned the benefit of the doubt. He has none.

MaximumSam · « **Reply #49 on:** February 18, 2023, 07:55:16 PM »

Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on February 18, 2023, 07:23:47 PM

@MaximumSam , at what point will you acknowledge that this is much worse than the type of rebuilding/transitional years that all programs occasionally face?

The MSU game saw tOSU's lowest scoring output in 27 years.

The current stretch is the worst in a quarter century.

This is literally the worst Ohio State basketball team in a generation.

That *MIGHT* be acceptable if the coach had accumulated some goodwill and earned the benefit of the doubt. He has none.

I mean, the team blows. That said, it's not even the worst OSU team in the last 10 years by the FancyStats. Though they can get there if they keep getting drilled. Like I've said, OSU fans have some magical thinking about how good a basketball program OSU has. We could be Nebraska pretty easily, where we have seasons like this and get excited about the future. Which isn't to say you roll with Holtmann until the end of time. The consistency that was his top hallmark certainly wasn't there this year.

ELA · « **Reply #50 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:08:11 PM »

I can't imagine a worse job than being the guy who follows Izzo. He took a mid level Big Ten job, and made it so that if Michigan or Ohio State has a lower floor than them, their coach gets put on the hot seat. This is a program that won a national title with arguably the greatest college player of all time, and then proceeded to parlay that into missing the tournament 8 times in the next 10 years. They actually got a little bit better in the early 90s, when Izzo became the associate head coach. He has set a floor has given Michigan and Ohio State fans unrealistic expectations, and I can only imagine the unrealistic expectations of the Michigan State fans going forward

Brutus Buckeye · « **Reply #51 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:13:47 PM »

Why is it unrealistic for two of the largest athletic programs in the country to be good at basketball? Because they are football schools?

We're having this debate when freaking Bama of all schools is ranked number one?

MaximumSam · « **Reply #52 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:16:01 PM »

Quote from: ELA on February 18, 2023, 08:08:11 PM

I can't imagine a worse job than being the guy who follows Izzo. He took a mid level Big Ten job, and made it so that if Michigan or Ohio State has a lower floor than them, their coach gets put on the hot seat. This is a program that won a national title with arguably the greatest college player of all time, and then proceeded to parlay that into missing the tournament 8 times in the next 10 years. They actually got a little bit better in the early 90s, when Izzo became the associate head coach. He has set a floor has given Michigan and Ohio State fans unrealistic expectations, and I can only imagine the unrealistic expectations of the Michigan State fans going forward

It's a tough hire, too - Duke and NC basically with program guys. Seems doubtful either will last five years.

MaximumSam · « **Reply #53 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on February 18, 2023, 08:13:47 PM

Why is it unrealistic for two of the largest athletic programs in the country to be good at basketball? Because they are football schools?

We're having this debate when freaking Bama of all schools is ranked number one?

Buckeyes made the tourney five straight times, counting the mystical COVID year. They've been good at basketball. Medina says be great or GTFO, and I'm not as sure that's as realistic as he does. Seems a lot easier to fall into a pit of despair and irrelevance.

ELA · « **Reply #54 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:19:55 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on February 18, 2023, 08:13:47 PM

Why is it unrealistic for two of the largest athletic programs in the country to be good at basketball? Because they are football schools?

We're having this debate when freaking Bama of all schools is ranked number one?

Absolutely can be good at basketball, as they generally have been. But basketball is also way more volatile year to year, and it's hard to have a high floor

ELA · « **Reply #55 on:** February 18, 2023, 08:22:34 PM »

Quote from: MaximumSam on February 18, 2023, 08:16:01 PM

It's a tough hire, too - Duke and NC basically with program guys. Seems doubtful either will last five years.

Tough comparison. North Carolina has had multiple great coaches. Duke has had multiple very good coaches, but their one great coach elevated the program well above what MSU has.

Id put MSU in the Louisville tier, and we see how their last two hires have gone.

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Topic: Basketball Coaching Carousel

bayareabadger

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ELA

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bayareabadger

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ELA

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CatsbyAZ

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medinabuckeye1

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medinabuckeye1

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MaximumSam

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ELA

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Brutus Buckeye

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MaximumSam

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MaximumSam

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ELA

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ELA

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