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Topic: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.
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Riffraft · « **Reply #112 on:** January 07, 2025, 12:14:29 PM »

Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.

When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.

It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.

Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #113 on:** January 07, 2025, 12:18:58 PM »

Nearly half of US health care expenses are paid for by our government. And of course a lot of it occurs near end of life, or in old age.

I also have nearly no influence over a health care provider beyond my PCP. I can't compare, and don't have any incentive, to find say an MRI provider that is cheaper.

I try and stay "in network" and something happens.

For us, our health insurance seems to work quite well at a low cost to us, but it is subsidized by my former employer, and my uncle.

SFBadger96 · « **Reply #114 on:** January 07, 2025, 02:07:57 PM »

Quote from: Riffraft on January 07, 2025, 12:14:29 PM

Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.

When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.

It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.

Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.

This is true to a point, but it ignores that buying health care isn't like buying a consumer product. First, it isn't a luxury/want item, it is generally a need item. Second, the complexity of what kind of care one needs is nearly impossible for a layperson to understand well enough--and with enough time--to appropriately shop it around. The ibuprofin is a little microcosm. Sure, hospitals mark some things up because some of their patients don't pay, but they also have to pay employees to stock and deliver that ibuprofin. Much like buying food at a restaurant, you aren't really paying for the item, you are paying for the service. Additionally, if you knew you needed the ibuprofin before you went in, you could just bring it yourself, but getting back to the complexity of the product that is offered, it is often not obvious to the consumer--before they go in for treatment--what kind of medications they will need. Maybe we should all go to the doctor's office with a bottle of acetaminophen and a bottle of ibuprofin because they are both so common, but how many of us actually keep those bottles with our wallets and keys, so we have them with us at all times?

So the insurance companies (and Medicare/Medicaid) are like personal valets--here is a network of people we trust to provide the service that you need.

SFBadger96 · « **Reply #115 on:** January 07, 2025, 02:21:09 PM »

The other problem is that the costs of significant care are extreme. Childbirth is a good example, but so are cancer care and heart surgery. These are astronomically expensive items. If the option is save or borrow to pay for them, not knowing when or how they will arise, that will create an economic calamity, as we have young families making the decision to simply skip medical care for childbirth and take their chances with all that entails, and many people for whom these economic costs are unavoidable will take the care, go into debt, and default (already a significant problem). We can talk about personal responsibility until we are blue in the face, but that won't make people save the amount of money they will need for these events. Their defaults would nut just impact them, but also the people they are in debt to (which will almost certainly include the medical care providers). The ethics of medical care are such that--unlike an attorney, for instance, who can demand a retainer before starting work--the idea of refusing acute care to someone who can't pay right away would be a very difficult one to stomach.

As a result, medical care virtually demands a pooled risk payment system. There are ways to make the costs more meaningful to the consumer, but in the abstract, insurance, whether private or public, is a must.

SuperMario · « **Reply #116 on:** January 07, 2025, 05:18:28 PM »

Quote from: SFBadger96 on January 07, 2025, 02:07:57 PM

he ibuprofin is a little microcosm. Sure, hospitals mark some things up because some of their patients don't pay, but they also have to pay employees to stock and deliver that ibuprofin. Much like buying food at a restaurant, you aren't really paying for the item, you are paying for the service. Additionally, if you knew you needed the ibuprofin before you went in, you could just bring it yourself, but getting back to the complexity of the product that is offered, it is often not obvious to the consumer--before they go in for treatment--what kind of medications they will need.

That's actually not correct. We had a bottle of ibuprofen with us and forbidden from taking it saying it had to come directly from the hospital itself, which is/was BS. They're going to give the old reasoning that they need to ensure they can verify what it is under their care, but when you're wife is in the medical field, knows exactly what it is, how could something that basic fall under that. So the 4 Ibuprofen for $32 is for the service and stocking of it, instead of being able to take our own for 5 cents? or not being prepared? It's a blatant money grab and they're give garbage legal reasoning for the money grab. If the "service" isn't needed, overcharging for the same exact thing has no justification that would sit well with me.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #117 on:** January 07, 2025, 05:21:07 PM »

If I needed say an MRI, nonemergency, and I had skin in the game, I'd probably call around to get the best price (like at Guido's MRI and Tatoo Parlor place). Then there would be price competition. MRIs vary wildly in cost from place to place.

FearlessF · « **Reply #118 on:** January 07, 2025, 06:11:25 PM »

easier for me to simply despise insurance companies

and note that a high percentage of doctors drive Mercedes

Gigem · « **Reply #119 on:** January 07, 2025, 08:31:23 PM »

I had a cousin who passed away recently. Not sure if it's totally relevant, but she was a drug abuser. Mostly pills, but meth too and all of that mess. She suffered from a brain hemorrhage and died. They flew her by life flight to the hospital in Houston, where she was in intensive care for 3-5 days on life support (brain dead). Her husband, my cousin, has a very average job, no health insurance. I only mention the drug abuse part because they have always been broke, barely pay the bills, she only worked off/on here and there through the years. Not a bad person, just one of those deals she could never shake. Their personal lives have always pretty much been a mess, both financially and relationships.

Anyways, I'm willing to bet he pays $0 for all the care she received up until her death. I mean, the bills are probably well into the 6 figure range at least, possibly $300-500,000 dollars. I have no idea. So why pay anything when you could never even make a dent? I wouldn't. So the money comes from people like you and I, who do have good insurance, just so the hospital can keep the doors open. This is the main reason why I favor some kind of bare-minimum medical insurance safety net, because we're already paying for it one way or another.

Hawkinole · « **Reply #120 on:** January 08, 2025, 12:07:16 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on January 07, 2025, 08:31:23 PM

This is the main reason why I favor some kind of bare-minimum medical insurance safety net, because we're already paying for it one way or another.

You don't have Medicaid expansion in Texas. Medicaid expansion keeps Iowa rural hospitals viable.
We have a thriving hospital in my county seat town of 5,000 which helps not just the least amongst us, but the rest of us who need local care, as well. We would not have the medical providers we have and local medical infrastructure without the support of Medicaid expansion.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #121 on:** January 08, 2025, 07:55:57 AM »

BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.

It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #122 on:** January 08, 2025, 08:24:15 AM »

Quote from: SuperMario on January 07, 2025, 10:25:17 AM

It's not just the health insurance companies, it's also the medical facilities and community. Let's be real. Our family welcomed another child into the family and when we looked at the insurance bill, we simply laughed. To get admitted to the hospital, we had to spend 20 minutes in a "triage" room because the birthing rooms were all full and they needed to determine if she was actually in labor. 20 minutes.. the bill broken down for that specific room was over $2,000.. 2 Colace pills.. $16.. 1 Ibuprofen.. $8..

So it made us curious, how much was the weekly visits to the OB..$650 a visit and the last few weeks were a matter of the doctor coming into the office, listening for a heartbeat asking if things were fine and walking out. And we really like this OB and very professional, but $650 for 10 minutes of her time. It's not just insurance. The entire system has absurdly priced.

I get your frustration with this as I had the same realization years back when my wife was pregnant with one of our kids. I actually brought this up with the doctor and was suprised that he actually was willing to discuss it.

Now, my youngest child is 25 years old so this converstation happened some time ago, but at that time, he stated that one of his many expenses was Malpractice insurance. At that time he was paying over $100,000 per year in Malpractice insurance without ever having submitted a claim. I don't remember what the cost of an office visit was at the time, but it was not anywhere close to $650, probably more like $100-$200. So how many office visits would he have to take to simply pay that bill? Never mind the cost of the office itself, the medical equipment that he had to maintain, the staff salaries and so on.

I am not trying to defend the doctors nor the insurance industry. However, there is one HUGE hidden cost that most people don't consider when thinking about the costs in healthcare and that is the Legal community that is more than willing to sue doctors for any perceived injustice. A mom smokes and drinks throughout her pregnancy and the child is born with issues and the first thing she does and call a lawyer and sue the doctor. I know that sounds extreme, but things like this happen more than you would think.

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #123 on:** January 08, 2025, 08:27:19 AM »

Quote from: Riffraft on January 07, 2025, 12:14:29 PM

Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.

When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.

It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.

Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.

Exactly. Add in to that the legal system that attempts to take their half out of the middle and you can quickly see how costs continue to rise.

FearlessF · « **Reply #124 on:** January 08, 2025, 08:39:48 AM »

paying over $100,000 per year in Malpractice insurance without ever having submitted a claim.

Hey, those insurance folks need a living wage too

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #125 on:** January 08, 2025, 08:46:51 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on January 07, 2025, 12:18:58 PM

Nearly half of US health care expenses are paid for by our government. And of course a lot of it occurs near end of life, or in old age.

I also have nearly no influence over a health care provider beyond my PCP. I can't compare, and don't have any incentive, to find say an MRI provider that is cheaper.

I try and stay "in network" and something happens.

For us, our health insurance seems to work quite well at a low cost to us, but it is subsidized by my former employer, and my uncle.

Actually, you can in some cases.

About 12 years ago I had an extended hospital stay for multiple organ failure when included my kidneys. I was on dialysis for about 3 months and afterwards, had to see the kidney doctor monthly for about a year. Each doctor visit required bloodwork to be done so that he could monitor that state of my kidneys.

To do the bloodwork, I would go to our local hospital where they would take me into a room, draw my blood and have it tested returning the results to my kidney doctor.

This was fine until I started getting the bill for the bloodwork. The hospital was charging almost $900 for this service. I went into the hospital and spoke with someone there about my bill. They were admitting me to the hospital in order to draw my blood. I stated that all I did was go into a room, let them take my blood and then leave, there was no stay. They said that was their process and I was reasposible for paying it.

Having a friend in the medical community, I was complaining about this and they told me that there was a much cheaper alternative. The hospital is not the entity that actually tests the blood, they just draw it. There is another company (LabCorp) that comes in daily, picks up the blood samples and sends them out for testing and then sends the test results to my doctor. It turns out that they have an outpatient facility near me were you can go in and they will do that actual draws (and it was almost right across from my kidney doctors main office). All I had to do was to tell my doctor to send the order for bloodwork to them instead of the hospital.

So that is exactly what I did for the next round of testing. This time, the bill was only $90. I suspect that there are many services outside of the normal process if you simply ask about it.

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Topic: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.

Riffraft

Re: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.

Cincydawg

Re: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.

SFBadger96

Re: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.

SFBadger96

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SuperMario

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Cincydawg

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FearlessF

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Gigem

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Hawkinole

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847badgerfan

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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FearlessF

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

Re: Badger Status - Doing well, annoying the nurses.