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Topic: B1G Power Rankings, week 8

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um1963

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2021, 09:54:11 AM »
I don't know how anyone could say Bammer and OSU would definitely go undefeated on Cincy's schedule, considering they haven't gone undefeated on their own schedule, and TAMU and Oregon aren't any better than Notre Dame.
You give Bama and OSU one somewhat challenging game and a cakewalk the rest of the season and they'll role right through that schedule.  I'm good with the debate but let's not glorify Cincy's path.  It's ok to call a spade a spade.

Cincydawg

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2021, 10:02:48 AM »
Yes, they could lose to ND, no doubt, but they likely would win that game, and then roll.

On the other hand, every team has pastries out there, as well as wins over teams that look good at the time and later not so much, like beating Clemson.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2021, 11:07:46 AM »
    But compare to Wake!
      • A 32 point win over Old Dominion. Old Dominion has 1 win, over Hampton
      • A 25 point win over Norfolk State. FCS school
      • A 21 point win over Florida State. FSU is 3-4 and lost to Jacksonville State.
      • A 20 point win over Virginia. Virginia is 4-2, and this is easily their best win.
      • A 3 point win over Louisville. Louisville is roughly on the level with UCF, who they beat by 7.
      • A 3 point win over Syracuse in OT. Syracuse lost by 10 to Rutgers.
      • A 14 point win over Army. Army is not a garbage team, though giving up 56 to Army seems humanly impossible. Army lost to Ball State and scored more against Wake than they did against UConn.
    In any event, I don't know how anyone could look at that and conclude it would be "unfair" to poor Wake Forest if they had to run through that murderer's row of opponents and be left out of the playoffs.
The difference, obviously, is what they have left and thus what they will have proven by the end of the season.  

As I outlined above, UC only plays one team in the top-35 in the nation (ND) and they already played them.  The toughest remaining game on their schedule is #36 SMU and that is also their strongest likely CG opponent.  UC's remaining games:
  • #36 SMU
  • #71 Tulsa
  • #92 Tulane
  • #105 USF
  • #106 ECU
Wake:
  • #30 NCST
  • #38 Clemson
  • #43 UNC
  • #63 BC
  • #81 Dook

We have three more opportunities to see Wake against decent teams before the CG and only one for UC.  Then in the CG (assuming both teams make it) UC's likely opponent is #36 SMU while Wake's is #25 Pitt.  

You are right that Wake is a not very impressive 7-0 but note that they are ranked only #13.  Cincinnati is a similarly unimpressive 7-0 and they are #2 because people aren't treating them like a legitimate contender.  Legitimate contenders get dinged when they have unimpressive wins like UC's one score win over a flat awful Navy team or a dogfight against Indiana.  If Ohio State did either of those things we would all expect them to drop at least a couple spots in the rankings.  I don't get why the AP voters are giving them a free pass and hopefully the CFP committee will be smarter and have them down around #10 or so which is more realistic for the Bearcats.  

FWIW:
I think part of the problem is that ND is insanely overrated at #11.  


MaximumSam

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #115 on: October 28, 2021, 11:23:26 AM »
Who deserves to be ranked above Cincy?


  • Alabama has the same number of wins over ranked teams and a loss to TAMU
  • Oklahoma has struggled with nearly everyone and has no wins over ranked teams
  • Ohio State has zero wins over ranked teams and a home loss to Oregon
  • Michigan might have the best case, as they are undefeated, though they again have no wins over ranked teams and struggled with Rutgers and Nebraska
  • Oregon easily has the best win at OSU, but lost to Stanford and struggled with Fresno State, Cal, and UCLA. If a 14 point win against Indiana is a problem, losing to Stanford is a bigger one
  • MSU is also undefeated, but is easily behind Cincy in that they have no wins over ranked teams and struggled with the Hoosiers more than Cincy did
  • Iowa certainly in the convo, because they have two wins over ranked teams and whipped Indiana. But they also got whipped by Purdue
  • Ole Miss possibly. No wins over ranked teams, and very close wins over Arkansas and Tennessee, and they were blown out by Bama. 

Honestly I have a very difficult time seeing much difference at all, if you take results on the field and not recruiting rankings.


Cincydawg

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #116 on: October 28, 2021, 11:54:57 AM »
In a power ranking, I'd take 7 teams in the top ten over Cincy, easily, and I think they'd all be favored, often by 10+ points.

And these teams have been playing and beating top 50 caliber teams usually handily.  I don't draw a line at 25.  The 30th best team is dangerous.

The 90th ranked team isn't.


MaximumSam

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #117 on: October 28, 2021, 12:02:13 PM »
In a power ranking, I'd take 7 teams in the top ten over Cincy, easily, and I think they'd all be favored, often by 10+ points.

Georgia, Bammer, OSU...after that? Who?

Abba

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #118 on: October 28, 2021, 12:52:55 PM »
Who deserves to be ranked above Cincy?


  • Alabama has the same number of wins over ranked teams and a loss to TAMU
  • Oklahoma has struggled with nearly everyone and has no wins over ranked teams
  • Ohio State has zero wins over ranked teams and a home loss to Oregon
  • Michigan might have the best case, as they are undefeated, though they again have no wins over ranked teams and struggled with Rutgers and Nebraska
  • Oregon easily has the best win at OSU, but lost to Stanford and struggled with Fresno State, Cal, and UCLA. If a 14 point win against Indiana is a problem, losing to Stanford is a bigger one
  • MSU is also undefeated, but is easily behind Cincy in that they have no wins over ranked teams and struggled with the Hoosiers more than Cincy did
  • Iowa certainly in the convo, because they have two wins over ranked teams and whipped Indiana. But they also got whipped by Purdue
  • Ole Miss possibly. No wins over ranked teams, and very close wins over Arkansas and Tennessee, and they were blown out by Bama.

Honestly I have a very difficult time seeing much difference at all, if you take results on the field and not recruiting rankings.



This is fine if the season ends today.  The problem is that all of those other teams have a big opportunity to improve their resume, while Cincinnati will not.  You can play w/ the 538 playoff predictor to see who needs to lose for Cincy to make it.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #119 on: October 28, 2021, 12:56:09 PM »
Rather than schedule 4 P5s OOC, they ought to simply join a better Conference. Like the Big 12, for example. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #120 on: October 28, 2021, 03:10:46 PM »
This is fine if the season ends today.  The problem is that all of those other teams have a big opportunity to improve their resume, while Cincinnati will not.  You can play w/ the 538 playoff predictor to see who needs to lose for Cincy to make it.
Exactly.  Per my extensive review of Cincy's schedule above (page 4 of this thread if you want to have a look), here are Cincy's opponents with their rankings taken from some random site I found on a quick google that ranks all the FBS teams:
  • #8 Notre Dame, won by 11
  • #36 SMU, 11/20
  • #44 UCF, won by 35
  • #57 IU, won by 14
  • #71 Tulsa, 11/6
  • #92 Tulane, 10/30
  • #95 MiamiOH, won by 35
  • #105 USF, 11/12
  • #106 ECU, 11/26
  • #112 Temple, won by 49
  • #116 Navy, won by 7
  • FCS MurraySt, won by 35

Then, assuming they win out they'll play an AAC team in the CG.  At this point that is most likely #67 Houston or #36 SMU.  

Cincinnati has already played their only serious test all season (ND) and they've played three of their toughest four opponents.  That doesn't leave much.  

For a legitimate NC contender #71 Tulsa is a payday game that you are expected to win by at least 3TD's.  Ohio State, for example, played Tulsa, beat them by 3 TD's and the win feels like a bad mark on tOSU's resume because it was "only" a 21 point win over Tulsa.  As a practical matter Cincy can barely prove anything against Tulsa and they really can't prove anything against Tulane, USF, and ECU.  That leaves only SMU.  Even SMU, Cincy's second best opponent all year is approximately equivalent to #39 Purdue, which is tOSU's 5th best opponent.  Ohio State will be expected to beat Purdue handily and if UC is a legitimate NC contender then they should be expected to beat a roughly equivalent SMU team by a roughly equivalent margin.  

Now compare to tOSU (and this same thing would apply to a somewhat greater or lesser extent to most P5 teams):
  • #6 Michigan, 11/27
  • #7 MSU, 11/20
  • #10 Oregon, lost by 7
  • #15 Penn State, 10/30
  • #39 Purdue, 11/13
  • #40 Maryland, won by 49
  • #51 Minnesota, won by 14
  • #57 Indiana, won by 47
  • #71 Tulsa, won by 21
  • #79 Nebraska, 11/6
  • #91 Rutgers, 39
  • #119 Akron, 52

Then, assuming they qualify they'll play a B1G-W team in the B1GCG.  At this point that is most likely #11 Iowa, #31 Wisconsin, or #51 Minnesota.  While Minnesota is currently ranked behind SMU, they will not be if they make the B1GCG.  

Ohio State has only played one of their toughest five games.  Granted they lost and that is an issue RIGHT NOW but if Ohio State wins out or even finishes 11-2 they'll have a slew of quality wins compared to Cincy which has a win over ND and not much else.  

So yes, right now UC's best win (ND) is better than tOSU's (UMD) but that will change.  Even if it turns out that Ohio State isn't all that good and they lose to Penn State and the Michigan schools that doesn't really help UC because some team will win each of those games.  At least one out of M/MSU/tOSU/PSU will finish with a pretty good record and that team will have a VASTLY more impressive resume than Cincinnati.  

The B1GCG winner, even if it is a 2-loss team will have a VASTLY more impressive resume than Cincinnati.  

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #121 on: October 28, 2021, 03:33:44 PM »
And fergawdsakes, bring back the "Keg of Nails" rivalry with Louisville! 

1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

MaximumSam

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #122 on: October 28, 2021, 04:10:24 PM »
This is fine if the season ends today.  The problem is that all of those other teams have a big opportunity to improve their resume, while Cincinnati will not.  You can play w/ the 538 playoff predictor to see who needs to lose for Cincy to make it.
Sure, but you can't rank teams based on who they hypothetically might beat in the future. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #123 on: October 28, 2021, 04:24:36 PM »
Sure, but you can't rank teams based on who they hypothetically might beat in the future.
Ranking Cincy now based on accomplishments so far they are, at best, about #10.  Their wins over horrible MiamiOH, MurraySt, and Temple prove nothing because those teams are horrible. Their win over IU is better than MSU's but MUCH worse than tOSU's, Iowa's, and PSU's.  Their seven point win over a horrible Navy team is a flat out embarrassment if you are treating them as a legitimate NC contender.  All that leaves is a 35 point win over UCF which is pretty good but not anything to hang your hat on and then an 11 point win over Notre Dame.  

I guess a lot of this hinges on what you think of Notre Dame and I think they are massively overrated.  Their only impressive win based on score is the 28 point win over Wisconsin but even there the Badgers had a fourth quarter lead and the game was within one score until less than 10 minutes remained.  

If you view Notre Dame the way I view Notre Dame then UC doesn't really have any significant accomplishments so all you are left with is comparing scores against crappy teams and they don't stack up very well there.  

MaximumSam

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2021, 04:31:06 PM »
Ranking Cincy now based on accomplishments so far they are, at best, about #10.  Their wins over horrible MiamiOH, MurraySt, and Temple prove nothing because those teams are horrible. Their win over IU is better than MSU's but MUCH worse than tOSU's, Iowa's, and PSU's.  Their seven point win over a horrible Navy team is a flat out embarrassment if you are treating them as a legitimate NC contender.  All that leaves is a 35 point win over UCF which is pretty good but not anything to hang your hat on and then an 11 point win over Notre Dame. 

I guess a lot of this hinges on what you think of Notre Dame and I think they are massively overrated.  Their only impressive win based on score is the 28 point win over Wisconsin but even there the Badgers had a fourth quarter lead and the game was within one score until less than 10 minutes remained. 

If you view Notre Dame the way I view Notre Dame then UC doesn't really have any significant accomplishments so all you are left with is comparing scores against crappy teams and they don't stack up very well there. 
But, again, who is better? OSU well behind Cincinnati on the metric of who have you beat. Same for a lot of teams.

Cincydawg

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Re: B1G Power Rankings, week 8
« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2021, 04:34:48 PM »
Sure, but you can't rank teams based on who they hypothetically might beat in the future.
Why not?  I think you can rank teams based on whatever you want.

 

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