header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: B1G East vs. B1G West

 (Read 6970 times)

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17244
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2019, 05:23:36 PM »
I'll watch any of them line up if it's a close/hard fought game
Don't go to bed with any woman crazier than you. - Frank Zappa

LittlePig

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2019, 05:44:14 PM »
I stil have a hunch that the Big Ten is going to get rid of divisions for the 2022 season and just have the 2 best teams play in the CCG.  This would require a NCAA rule change but I believe all the conferences will be on board soon.  

The AAC has already been granted a waiver to do this in 2020 after UConn leaves, and the AAC is left with 11 teams.

I believe 2022 is the magic year because 2021 is the end of a 6-year cycle where everybody plays everybody twice, once at home, once away.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72413
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2019, 07:27:40 AM »
A thing I like about divisions is that a program like Northwestern can claim a West Title (and did) as a thing.  They would have little chance to make the CG otherwise.

LittlePig

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2019, 08:33:46 AM »
A thing I like about divisions is that a program like Northwestern can claim a West Title (and did) as a thing.  They would have little chance to make the CG otherwise.
I disagree.  Although the schedules won't exactly be the same, they won't be dramatically different if you go with a divisonless schedule with 5 permanent rivals.

Without divisions last year,  OSU, Mich and NW woud have finished in a 3-way tie for first at 8-1.  So then the question is how would they have broke the tie since OSU and NW did not play in the regular season.  I have a hunch OSU and Mich would have made the CCG because

1) OSU beat Mich
2) Mich beat NW
3) OSU and Mich were ranked higher
4)  NW sucked in OOC games

So I can"t see NW winning many tiebreakers last year,  but in the end it did come down to the tiebreaker.  Who knows, if NW plays PSU instead of Mich, maybe they beat PSU and finish 9-0.  It could have easily happened with a slight tweak in the schedule.

If you go back to 2014-2018, I think the only time the 2 teams would have been different in the CCG would have been

2016 (would have been OSU-PSU rematch instead of PSU-Wisc) 

and 2018 (OSU-Mich rematch instead of OSU-NW)

The other 3 years, it would have been the same 2 teams in the CCG. 

2014 (Wisc-OSU)
2015 (Iowa-MSU)
2017 (Wisc-OSU)

Although I will concede that 2015 Iowa had a ridiculously easy schedule, skipping OSU, Mich, PSU and MSU in the regular season.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 11:00:40 PM by LittlePig »

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20399
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2019, 08:47:57 AM »
The thing I like about divisions is that at least you play a fairly similar schedule as your division mates.  2/3 of your conference games will be the same, and even that can sometimes result in lopsidedness.  If you open it up completely, the schedule disparities would be greater.

I agree though, it's coming.  Although what I disagree with is the timing.  I think the impetus will be the CFP going to 8, and including all 5 conference champions, and the conferences not wanting to risk a 4 loss division champ pulling an upset and getting into the CFP.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72413
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2019, 09:59:17 AM »
NW can claim a West Championship, which is a thing for them.

LittlePig

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2019, 10:34:41 AM »
NW can claim a West Championship, which is a thing for them.
That's true, but in a divisionless system,  wouldn't an appearance in the CCG be considered equivalent to a division championship?  Would teams hang a banner for somethiing like that?  Not sure.  But its definitely something you would bring up on a coach's or team's resume.  The Number of times you went to the CCG.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8955
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2019, 10:35:39 AM »
So I can"t see NW winning many tiebreakers last year,  but in the end it did come down to the tiebreaker.  Who knows, if NW plays PSU instead of Mich, maybe they beat PSU and finish 9-0.  It could have easily happened with a slight tweak in the schedule.
In this scenario I think they still would have made it even if they LOST to PSU.  The usual first tiebreaker is H2H2H.  If NU had lost to PSU then all three would have been 8-1 and the H2H2H would have been:
  • 1-0 Ohio State
  • 0-0 Northwestern
  • 0-1 Michigan
I'm pretty sure Ohio State and Northwestern would go to the CG and Michigan would get left out.  


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72413
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2019, 10:40:51 AM »
In a divisionless system, a program like NW would have far less of a chance of a CG appearance IMHO.  So would Iowa as things stand today.

It's one thing I like about divisions, lesser programs have a better chance of "winning" a something.  It's a bit like how Missouri won the SEC East twice.  That's a thing for them, they probably have a banner or something.  For OSU and PSU and Michigan, it's likely a nothing but a painful CG loss.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8955
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2019, 10:54:26 AM »
The thing I like about divisions is that at least you play a fairly similar schedule as your division mates.  2/3 of your conference games will be the same, and even that can sometimes result in lopsidedness.  If you open it up completely, the schedule disparities would be greater.

I agree though, it's coming.  Although what I disagree with is the timing.  I think the impetus will be the CFP going to 8, and including all 5 conference champions, and the conferences not wanting to risk a 4 loss division champ pulling an upset and getting into the CFP.
I agree that the schedule disparities would be MUCH greater in a divisionless system.  As it is now, we have 14 teams so there are 13 possible opponents and each team plays nine and misses four.  In a divisionless system that could be HUGE.  If MSU got stuck playing the toughest nine and Ohio State lucked into the easiest nine they would only have five middling opponents in common.  

On your other point, would that really be a bad thing?  I'm assuming that when (not if) they go to eight it will be:
  • The five P5 Champions, 
  • The highest ranked G5 Champion, and
  • The two highest ranked teams not already included.  

Hypothetical using this year:
  • Suppose that Ohio State wins out to the CG and enters the CG 12-0 and ranked #2 (behind 12-0 Bama/LSU).  
  • Suppose that Minnesota tanks while the Iowa/Wisconsin winner loses another game and the B1G-W Champion ends up being a 10-3 Wisconsin.  
  • Suppose that 10-3 Wisconsin upsets Ohio State in a rematch in the CG.  

If that happened Wisconsin would get into the hypothetical eight-team playoff but Ohio State would probably get in as well.  At 12-1 with a CG loss to a team that they blew out earlier in the year they would have to be a very strong candidate.  Looking at the current AP Poll:
  • The Bama/LSU loser could finish 11-1 and ahead of Ohio State.  
  • In theory the Bama/LSU winner could lose the SECCG and also finish ahead of Ohio State.  
  • #4 Clemson's SoS is so weak that I can't see a 12-1 Clemson finishing ahead of a 12-1 Ohio State.  
  • #5 Penn State could theoretically finish 11-1 but:  First, I don't think they would finish ahead of Ohio State being 1/2 game down and with a H2H loss, and second even if they did that isn't a bad thing for the conference as a whole.  
  • #6 Florida can't finish with one loss without winning the SEC and they wouldn't likely finish ahead of Ohio State with two or more losses.  
  • #7 Oregon can't finish with one loss without winning the PAC and they wouldn't finish ahead of Ohio State with two or more losses.  
  • #8 Georgia can't finish with one loss without winning the SEC and they wouldn't likely finish ahead of Ohio State with two or more losses.  
  • #9 Utah can't finish with one loss without winning the PAC and they wouldn't finish ahead of Ohio State with two or more losses.  
  • #10 Oklahoma can't finish with one loss without winning the B12 and they wouldn't finish ahead of Ohio Sate with two or more losses.  

Granted, the situation is VERY different if Ohio State loses to Michigan because an 11-2 non-champion Ohio State coming off of back-to-back losses would have effectively no chance at the CFP but in that case PSU might get a second bid for the league.  


FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37914
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2019, 10:56:25 AM »
That's true, but in a divisionless system,  wouldn't an appearance in the CCG be considered equivalent to a division championship?  Would teams hang a banner for somethiing like that?  Not sure.  But its definitely something you would bring up on a coach's or team's resume.  The Number of times you went to the CCG.
no banners
and in this situation the Wildcats would need to finish ahead of 3 of the 4 of Michigan, Penn St., Ohio St., AND Wiscy.  
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12361
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2019, 11:51:11 AM »
I agree that the schedule disparities would be MUCH greater in a divisionless system.  As it is now, we have 14 teams so there are 13 possible opponents and each team plays nine and misses four.  In a divisionless system that could be HUGE.  If MSU got stuck playing the toughest nine and Ohio State lucked into the easiest nine they would only have five middling opponents in common
I love the implied [and likely unintentional, although you ARE a Buckeye fan] dig at Michigan here.

Since you know that MSU and OSU will both have Michigan as a permanent rival, that is consigning them to be the within the "5 middling opponents" classification every year.

If that was intentional, well played! :bravo_2:

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37914
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2019, 12:36:47 PM »
and even if it wasn't intentional

bravo!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8955
  • Liked:
Re: B1G East vs. B1G West
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2019, 01:22:42 PM »
I love the implied [and likely unintentional, although you ARE a Buckeye fan] dig at Michigan here.

Since you know that MSU and OSU will both have Michigan as a permanent rival, that is consigning them to be the within the "5 middling opponents" classification every year.
If that was intentional, well played! :bravo_2:
and even if it wasn't intentional

bravo!
LoL, thanks guys!  It was quasi-intentional.  When I initially typed it, it wasn't intentional.  However, before I posted it, I looked at the Power Rankings that I was working on updating.  I was going to use the current Power Rankings as an example.  However, when I looked at the rankings I noticed that Michigan was #4 so they wouldn't be included in my hypothetical Ohio State schedule of the worst nine teams in the conference.  I realized, of course, that Ohio State and Michigan would be permanent rivals so the example didn't work.  THEN I realized that if I just left the statement alone with no example it would, as @bwarbiany stated, "consign Michigan to be within the '5 middling opponents' classification every year."  I liked that!

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.