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Topic: An unpopular argument

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FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2022, 01:18:54 PM »
well, adding two historically good teams from LA is more than hope

Wisconsin and Nebraska with new coaches is more than hope
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ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2022, 02:15:09 PM »
what's the problem?
I don't see the problem with this season
So, one division is stronger than the other.  That's almost always going to be the case

put the beach boys in the west and hope they can bring some competition

hope Wisconsin and Nebraska rise again
Yes, but whenever you put the two both historically and currently best programs in one division, it's going to be inherently lopsided.  It's worse now because they also have one of the two historical helmets, and then probably the historical (and current?) #5 school.  But like I said, if you put OSU-UM and #10-#14 in one division, and #3-#9 in the other, and gave USC the choice, they'd pick the #3-#9.

If you look at historical/current tiers, it would be...

  • 1. Ohio State
  • 2. Michigan
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 3. USC
  • 4. Penn State
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 5-8. Nebraska, Wisconsin, MSU, Iowa
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 9-12. UCLA, Maryland, Illinois, Purdue
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 13-14. Northwestern, Minnesota
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 15-16. Indiana, Rutgers

So I would start with OSU/PSU and UM/Ohio State, then divide the rest to preserve the rivalries we could

Division 1: Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Maryland, Northwestern, Rutgers
Division 2: Michigan, USC, Michigan State, Wisconsin, UCLA, Purdue, Minnesota, Indiana

Who says no?

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2022, 02:26:47 PM »
and reshuffle the divisions every ten seasons to try to keep them balanced?

I say, "no"

east & west

the beach boys join the west
Purdue goes east
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2022, 02:53:55 PM »
What if they did an "A Division" and a "B Division"? Initially divide it up by brand names for ratings, but then have maybe a promotion and relegation system so that if a team like Nebraska goes stale for a while then they can go sort it out in the B Division, while the top team in the "B Division" gets their spot at the big boy table. 

A Division 

  • Ohio State 
  • Michigan 
  • Penn State  
  • USC 
  • UCLA 
  • Nebraska
  • Wisconsin 
  • Iowa 


B Division

  • Michigan State 
  • Maryland 
  • Rutgers 
  • Indiana 
  • Purdue 
  • Minnesota 
  • Illinois 
  • Northwestern 


1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2022, 02:56:21 PM »
no
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2022, 03:05:16 PM »
Yes, but whenever you put the two both historically and currently best programs in one division, it's going to be inherently lopsided.  It's worse now because they also have one of the two historical helmets, and then probably the historical (and current?) #5 school.  But like I said, if you put OSU-UM and #10-#14 in one division, and #3-#9 in the other, and gave USC the choice, they'd pick the #3-#9.

If you look at historical/current tiers, it would be...

  • 1. Ohio State
  • 2. Michigan
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 3. USC
  • 4. Penn State
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 5-8. Nebraska, Wisconsin, MSU, Iowa
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 9-12. UCLA, Maryland, Illinois, Purdue
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 13-14. Northwestern, Minnesota
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 15-16. Indiana, Rutgers

So I would start with OSU/PSU and UM/Ohio State, then divide the rest to preserve the rivalries we could

Division 1: Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Maryland, Northwestern, Rutgers
Division 2: Michigan, USC, Michigan State, Wisconsin, UCLA, Purdue, Minnesota, Indiana

Who says no?
I think what you have laid out here is very well thought out and you did the best that could be done to maintain rivalries while achieving some chance of competitive balance.  

That said, I would have a couple issues with it.  The first is something that @FearlessF already hit on.  We've seen a lot of conferences where the competitive balance has flipped back and forth.  Remember when Nebraska and KSU dominated and the B12-N was MUCH stronger than the B12-S?  Remember when UF and UT dominated and the SEC-E was MUCH stronger than the SEC-W?  

This isn't a criticism of the divisions you came up with or even your method.  I actually agree with your method of looking at it on a historical basis and figuring that will be best in the long run.  Sure, you might have random hiccups like Michigan completely sucking for a while under RRod/Hoke or PSU completely sucking for a while after the scandal but hopefully we've got enough balance overall that when Michigan sucks maybe USC will be really good or maybe when PSU sucks Nebraska will be really good.  

My second issue is just, as a fan, that I don't like the idea of so few games against most of the teams in the other half of the league.  On your model I assume we would have:
  • 9 league games
  • 1 fixed cross-over
  • 1 rotating cross-over
I'm assuming a fixed cross-over because I assume that we would have:
  • tOSU/M - We aren't ending THE GAME (even if we do move it off the last weekend)
  • Iowa/UW - You just can't abruptly stop this
  • PSU/USC -  mostly as a fairness thing
  • UNL/MSU - mostly as a fairness thing
  • IL/PU - I picked this instead of UCLA for travel costs reasons.  UMD/UCLA is a long trip but not much more expensive than UMD/IL
  • UMD/UCLA
  • NU/IU
  • RU/MN

So then schedule-wise just using my team as an example it would take 14 years to play the seven teams in "Division 2" not named Michigan H&A:
  • at M, vs USC
  • vs M, at MSU
  • at M, vs UW
  • vs M, at UCLA
  • at M, vs PU
  • vs M, at MN
  • at M, vs IU
  • vs M, at USC
  • at M, vs MSU
  • vs M, at UW
  • at M, vs UCLA
  • vs M, at PU
  • at M, vs MN
  • vs M, at IU

As a fan I just think it sucks that my team would only visit Bloomington, Minneapolis, West Lafayette, Westwood, Madison, East Lansing, and LA once every 14 years.  We'd also, of course, only host USC, MSU, UW, UCLA, PU, MN, and IU once every 14 years.  

That is why I've always assumed pods (you can call them something else if you like) once we go to 16+.  With pods I'm assuming that you need a "headliner" in each pod and of the 16 those are:
  • Ohio State
  • Michigan
  • USC
  • Penn State
Then you add three teams to each headliner to make a 4-team pod and your schedule each year is:
  • The other three teams in your pod
  • The four teams in one of the other three pods on a rotating basis
  • One or two cross-overs.  
That way each team would still play the non-crossovers from other pods both H&A every six years rather than 14.  


ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2022, 03:13:30 PM »
What if they did an "A Division" and a "B Division"? Initially divide it up by brand names for ratings, but then have maybe a promotion and relegation system so that if a team like Nebraska goes stale for a while then they can go sort it out in the B Division, while the top team in the "B Division" gets their spot at the big boy table.
If?

ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2022, 03:16:17 PM »
Yes, but whenever you put the two both historically and currently best programs in one division, it's going to be inherently lopsided.  It's worse now because they also have one of the two historical helmets, and then probably the historical (and current?) #5 school.  But like I said, if you put OSU-UM and #10-#14 in one division, and #3-#9 in the other, and gave USC the choice, they'd pick the #3-#9.

If you look at historical/current tiers, it would be...

  • 1. Ohio State
  • 2. Michigan
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 3. USC
  • 4. Penn State
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 5-8. Nebraska, Wisconsin, MSU, Iowa
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 9-12. UCLA, Maryland, Illinois, Purdue
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 13-14. Northwestern, Minnesota
  • ----------------------------------------
  • 15-16. Indiana, Rutgers

So I would start with OSU/PSU and UM/Ohio State, then divide the rest to preserve the rivalries we could

Division 1: Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Maryland, Northwestern, Rutgers
Division 2: Michigan, USC, Michigan State, Wisconsin, UCLA, Purdue, Minnesota, Indiana

Who says no?

Same but pods

#1 - Ohio State, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota
#2 - Michigan, Michigan State, Maryland, Rutgers
#3 - USC, Nebraska, UCLA, Northwestern
#4 - Penn State, Iowa, Purdue, Indiana

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2022, 03:31:42 PM »
if you have a 16 team or larger conference, there are just going to be some teams y'all don't play very often

even if you go to 10-conference games

even if you use pods

too many teams, not enough games
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2022, 03:32:10 PM »
If?
LoL.  

I think you can kinda see our individual biases showing through here.  As an MSU fan, one of @ELA 's concerns is having a viable path to the CG for his team.  MSU is good enough that they MIGHT be able to win a division once in a while but it is very difficult when they get lumped in with tOSU, M, and PSU.  They did, of course, manage to accomplish it once in the E-W era but here is what it took:
  • A fortuitous upset of the Buckeyes in a monsoon in Columbus, and
  • Michigan not quite recovered from a historically bad RRod/Hoke era, and 
  • Penn State still recovering from their own scandal and issues.  

In more normal times they might knock off one but they have almost no chance of beating all three to claim the division:
  • 2014 managed to beat PSU and M but finished a game and a tiebreaker behind Ohio State
  • 2016 off year
  • 2017 managed to beat PSU and M but finished 7-2 a game and the tiebreaker behind the Buckeyes
  • 2018 managed to beat PSU but lost to the other two and finished three games out plus the tiebreaker
  • 2019 off year
  • 2020 goofy covid off year
  • 2021 managed to knock off M and PSU but finished one game out and that isn't really as close as it seems.  

2021:
This seems kinda close because they were only one game out and beat the eventual Champion but it really wasn't because IF tOSU had defeated M then they'd have been two games out plus the tiebreaker.  Even if they had managed to win the PU game, that would only have created a 3-way tie that they wouldn't have won.  

ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2022, 04:24:09 PM »
LoL. 

I think you can kinda see our individual biases showing through here.  As an MSU fan, one of @ELA 's concerns is having a viable path to the CG for his team.  MSU is good enough that they MIGHT be able to win a division once in a while but it is very difficult when they get lumped in with tOSU, M, and PSU.  They did, of course, manage to accomplish it once in the E-W era but here is what it took:
  • A fortuitous upset of the Buckeyes in a monsoon in Columbus, and
  • Michigan not quite recovered from a historically bad RRod/Hoke era, and
  • Penn State still recovering from their own scandal and issues. 
And once when they had to play OSU, they beat them.

It has nothing to do with MSUs path.  I just split OSU/UM, then the next two, then I split the next 4 by rivalries, so putting MSU with UM made sense.

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2022, 04:38:27 PM »
it makes sense to only worry about protected cross overs for tradition and rivalries

if you don't play any other teams in the other division, that's OK

they're not really in your "conference"

the divisions are large enough to be conferences
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2022, 04:47:48 PM »
And once when they had to play OSU, they beat them.

It has nothing to do with MSUs path.  I just split OSU/UM, then the next two, then I split the next 4 by rivalries, so putting MSU with UM made sense.
Even if it isn't your specific motivation I still think it is a legitimate concern.  Realistically with tOSU, M, and PSU all being in one division the chances for the other team are going to be pretty minimal.  In the West or any weaker division those four might have a chance at least once in a while:
  • MSU:  Since joining the league the Spartans have been in the second tier I would say and occasionally been good enough to challenge the top teams.  By "challenge the top teams" I'm not just talking about upsetting a great tOSU or M team or knocking off a down tOSU or M team, I mean be right there with a great tOSU or M team.  The Spartans haven't been able to compete at that level with the consistency of Ohio State or even Michigan but they have been able to do it from time to time.  
  • Maryland:  There is a lot of talent in the DC Metro area and Maryland has an overall historical profile considerably above where they have been since joining the league.  With the right coach I think they could at least field a serious contender once in a while.  
  • Rutgers:  This one is a tougher sell but there IS a lot of talent in NJ.  Schiano had a far easier road when they were in the BigE but they should be able to compete at least sporadically.  
  • Indiana:  Yeah, I don't know what to say about this one.  They haven't won a league title since 1967 and that one was a pretty goofy split where Purdue was obviously the best team, then Minnesota, then Indiana but the Hoosiers got PU at home and managed to pull off the upset.  That split title in 1967 was Indiana's only since WWII (well technically their 1945 title was post-war because the war ended before the season did but the talent was still mostly in the military and when the guys came home Illinois won in 1946 and Michigan won four straight after that (1947-1950).  Those are Indiana's only two titles all-time which is not just terrible compared to Michigan (43) and Ohio State (39), it is terrible compared to Purdue and Northwestern (8 each), Michigan State (9 despite joining 50some years later), Iowa (11), Chicago (7 despite leaving in the 30's), Wisconsin (14), Illinois (15), Minnesota (18), and Penn State (4 despite joining about 90 years later).  


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2022, 05:12:06 PM »
if you have a 16 team or larger conference, there are just going to be some teams y'all don't play very often

even if you go to 10-conference games

even if you use pods

too many teams, not enough games
If you use pods, you will play all 15 other teams every 2 years and home-and-home vs everyone every 4 years. 
I don't think you understand pods.
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