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Topic: An unpopular argument

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medinabuckeye1

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An unpopular argument
« on: November 25, 2022, 10:25:27 AM »
If the league goes to a divisonless CG structure, THE GAME has to be moved off of the final weekend.  

I know this is not a popular argument around here but this year makes a great example so I'm going to use it.  If we had a divisonless structure, here would be the top of the standings heading into THE GAME:

  • 8-0 Michigan
  • 8-0 Ohio State
  • 6-2 Penn State (lost to tOSU and M)
  • 5-3 Iowa (lost to tOSU, M, and IL)
  • 5-3 Purdue (lost to PSU, UW,  and IA)
Ohio State and Michigan would have already clinched.  Actually, both would have clinched before last week's games because neither Maryland (3-4 heading in) nor Illinois (4-3 heading in) could have caught either so the only team that could have would have been PSU which both already defeated.  

Why I think you can't have tOSU/M the week before a divisonless CG / Imagine that we had a divisonless CG this year:
Assume for a minute that you are Jim Harbaugh or Ryan Day.  You are presented with two consecutive games against the other.  From a fan perspective we want to win both, of course but from Day/Harbaugh's perspective the second one matters and the first one doesn't.  This will be even more true when we go to a 12-team CFP with the top-4 league champs getting a bye.  The winner of the SECOND tOSU/M game gets a bye.  The winner of the first . . . gets to play in the second.  The second game gets you a bye.  The first game might potentially matter a little bit for seeding, maybe.  Oh, winning the first also gets you bragging rights . . . for a week.  

If this was the situation this year then none of the banged up players would play this week because it would be MUCH more sensible to let them rest and recover and get them back for the game that matters, the second tOSU/M game.  On top of that, from a game-planning perspective there would be no reason to utilize (and thus give away) any advantage you thought you had discovered in game #1, it would make MUCH more sense to keep those cards in your hand and just basically play a vanilla gameplan with half your starters out in game #1.  


FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2022, 10:27:47 AM »
just one reason I prefer divisions if ya don't play a round robin cause ya got too many teams
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2022, 10:28:32 AM »
I think it would have to be moved to October, probably mid-month. Otherwise it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Michigan can play Sparty the week prior, and OSU can play Wisconsin.

Move UW and Minnie back to October like it should be.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2022, 10:31:20 AM »
just keep the divisions

especially when the beach bums climb aboard

round robin with each 8-team division - a couple cross overs just for fun

winners play for a title of some sort

"the game" is saved
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2022, 11:15:33 AM »
Michigan can play Sparty the week prior, and OSU can play Wisconsin.
I like this - ANNUALLY of course
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2022, 11:22:26 AM »
I think it would have to be moved to October, probably mid-month. Otherwise it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Michigan can play Sparty the week prior, and OSU can play Wisconsin.

Move UW and Minnie back to October like it should be.
I like the Axe game as a season ending game and this really wouldn't fix things.

I think the best teams (historically but about 20 years not 100+) need to not play each other in the last few weeks.

These are all opponent records but here are 2002-2021:
  • #1 Ohio State .850
  • #8 USC .720
  • #9 Wisconsin .719
  • #18 Iowa .660
  • #19 Penn State .657
  • #20 Michigan .655
  • #29 Michigan State .610
  • #38 Nebraska .571
  • #53 Northwestern .528
  • #57 Minnesota .524
  • #58 UCLA .520
  • #78 Maryland .475
  • #81 Rutgers .451
  • #86 Purdue .440
  • #101 Indiana .370
  • #108 Illinois .347
Maybe 20 years isn't quite enough but if we are scrapping divisions then Ohio State's final game opponent should be a team from the bottom half and, if possible, the bottom quarter so Illinois, Indiana, Purdue, or Rutgers.

There is actually some history with Illinois. Here is Ohio State's final regular season game as a progression starting when tOSU joined the league in 1913:
  • Northwestern from 1913 until WWI
  • Camp Sherman and Michigan during WWI
  • Illinois 1919-1930
  • Minnesota 1931
  • Illinois 1932-1933
  • Iowa 1934
  • Michigan 1935-present

I would NOT want Purdue because they tend to upset the Buckeyes a LOT more than they "should" (should meaning statistically) anyway and if you stuck them in the week before the CG I would just expect that to get worse.

Indiana would be a border-state thing and by far the closest of the four geographically.

Rutgers would have the theoretical benefit (for the league in general and tOSU also) of putting a frequently highly ranked team in the nation's #1 media market in late November.

The problem is that Indiana, Purdue (each other), and Illinois (Northwestern) already have season-ending rivalries that DO NOT need to be broken up for CG reasons.

Thus, the most logical end of season games are probably:
  • #1 tOSU VS #13 Rutgers
  • #2 USC VS #11 UCLA
  • #3 Wisconsin VS #10 Minnesota
  • #4 Iowa VS #8 Nebraska
  • #5 Penn State VS #12 Maryland
  • #6 Michigan VS #7 Michigan State
  • #9 Northwestern VS #16 Illinois
  • #14 Purdue VS #15 Indiana


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2022, 11:23:36 AM »
ANALLY?
.
Scheduled rematches are the dumbest dumb.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

LittlePig

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 11:33:33 AM »
I believe many have made the argument that the significance of Michigan and Ohio State playing on the final game of the regular season has been greatly diminished for the following reasons.

The Game used to be the week before Thanksgiving so many of the game-week traditions were done while students were still on campus.  When The Game and other Big Ten rival games were moved to the Saturday after Thanksgiving, that screwed up rival week for a lot of rival games.

The Game is not really the final game or the only important game of the season anymore for OSU or Mich.  Now the CCG and bowls and CFP are other important games that still need to be played after The Game.

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2022, 11:39:33 AM »
there's certainly great significance this season
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2022, 11:44:14 AM »
just one reason I prefer divisions if ya don't play a round robin cause ya got too many teams
Agreed.

The problem is if you put UM/OSU in one division, that will be the hardest.

Say you have...

Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Rutgers, Maryland
Penn State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, Northwestern

So you have OSU/UM and probably the 5 worst teams of the 14 team era in one, and teams #3-#9 in the other, and you ask USC and UCLA which division they want to join.  Anyone think they choose #1?  So then you split up those two?  Then you still have to move the game off the final weekend, because they could still rematch

ELA

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2022, 11:45:52 AM »
I believe many have made the argument that the significance of Michigan and Ohio State playing on the final game of the regular season has been greatly diminished for the following reasons.

The Game used to be the week before Thanksgiving so many of the game-week traditions were done while students were still on campus.  When The Game and other Big Ten rival games were moved to the Saturday after Thanksgiving, that screwed up rival week for a lot of rival games.

The Game is not really the final game or the only important game of the season anymore for OSU or Mich.  Now the CCG and bowls and CFP are other important games that still need to be played after The Game.
And it was the last you saw your team for like 6 weeks, in a bowl game.  And if you lost, maybe not even then.  Now, you hope to have 3 more games, and soon 4.  It's not really the "end" of the season anymore.  You could potentially still have a quarter of your season left

LittlePig

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2022, 12:03:10 PM »
It is interesting to think how this weekend would be different if, say Mich and OSU play in October and OSU-PSU + Mich-MSU play on Thanksgiving weekend.

PSU could be playing OSU for a chance at the CCG.

FearlessF

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2022, 12:11:59 PM »
Agreed.

The problem is if you put UM/OSU in one division, that will be the hardest.
what's the problem?
I don't see the problem with this season
So, one division is stronger than the other.  That's almost always going to be the case

put the beach boys in the west and hope they can bring some competition

hope Wisconsin and Nebraska rise again 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: An unpopular argument
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2022, 01:05:04 PM »
Hope is a great strategy
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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