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Topic: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center

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FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #224 on: February 28, 2025, 12:04:01 PM »
it's unfortunate that Jimmy the Greek can't be brought into this conversation and have some influence into writing of the book
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jgvol

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #225 on: February 28, 2025, 12:33:42 PM »
it's unfortunate that Jimmy the Greek can't be brought into this conversation and have some influence into writing of the book

Charles Murray will do.

SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #226 on: March 04, 2025, 02:47:57 PM »
I laid out most of my theory in the last few posts.  I'm curious to see yours because I know you come at this from a very different political perspective. 
Don't want you to think that I'm evading this--just have been really busy at work. 
So I'll take a quick shot at it:
1) The post-WWII U.S. industrial advantage was beginning to end as of the mid-1960s. Not only were other industrialized nations catching up, but because of their economic situations, they were selling goods at lower costs than the U.S. manufacturers did.
2) The U.S. economy began to shift to take advantage of the available lower cost goods (which, given the stability of the world order, could be reliably shipped), which lead to the development of the knowledge economy, referred to earlier.
3) Union labor, which emerged from the Great Depression and WWII as a very strong force for protecting middle class jobs, was largely tied--because of the way the National Labor Relations Act (circa 1934?) was written--to "shops," i.e. manufacturing jobs. As other countries began to put pressure on the U.S. through cheaper manufacturing, labor lost bargaining power against the "owner class." That meant a deterioration of middle class wages for traditional blue collar jobs. We saw this very explicitly through the 1970s and 1980s as private union labor lost a huge amount of economic and political power. 
4) At the same time (the mid-60s), the traditional political power behind union labor, the Democratic Party, became the party of civil rights. There was a massive conflict between the union system (which protects jobs above all else) and civil rights activism, which sought to end barriers for minorities (at the time, primarily black people) in the work stream. That involved a direct assault on the union labor system, which relies a great deal on seniority, further weakening labor's political power. While this was morally the right thing to do, it was also disruptive to the economic order, with a big impact on the middle class.
5) At the same time, the "knowledge economy" was expanding, which allowed many in the middle class to shift to other work, so the middle class didn't go away, it just changed. While the middle class has shrunk, only part of that was going to the poor; much of it (more of it) was people moving up in economic status, with a larger portion of the population in the "wealthy" class. 
6) The global order that the U.S. basically created and maintained, also provided for the expansion of industrial economies all over the world. So cheaper goods were available, and as long as goods were cheap, things remained "affordable" even if the job market was changing a great deal.
7) The expansion of the "knowledge economy," including the loss of pensions, and the growth of investment among the (primarily upper) middle class, meant a larger set of people with a direct interest in corporate profits, further eroding organized labor's bargaining power.

This sounds like the recitation of a person who is opposed to global trade--I am not. Global stability has been very good for the U.S. financially--allowing us to remain the wealthiest country in the world, including a generally healthy enough middle class. 

Responding to a few other things I've seen here: I would be curious to see studies that estimate the impact of changing legal immigration trends on the U.S. economy. I suspect that downward wage pressure on the middle class hasn't been especially strong as a result of legal immigration--even if that immigration changed in character in the mid-60s.
I agree that stable homes, with two parents, generally make for better training grounds for productive economic participation. And I think that certain federal policies have negatively impacted that. 
I also agree that we seem to be further insulating ourselves from each other. It's what I've heard referred to as the frequent flyer, or airline pricing effect. In a simpler economy, and in a less connected world, in the Depression years, and in the immediately post-WWII years (including as long as we had a big external threat in the Soviet Union), we were more connected than I think we are now. We divide ourselves, in schools, in subdivisions, in parks, in clubs (actually, we largely don't participate in clubs anymore), in churches, even in which seats we sit in on airplanes, and now--especially now--through algorithms that identify our interests and target us with information (largely driven by advertising dollars), largely along socio-economic lines. The more we insulate ourselves, the harder it is to feel empathy for each other, the harder it is for us to even understand where the others are coming from. There was a lot of this that was very overt in reaction to changes that came as the result of the civil rights movement, and there is a lot of it that has absolutely nothing to do with that.
That erosion is a massive problem because empathy is such a strong human emotion. When we sit across the dinner table from each other, most of us immediately connect with each others' humanity, and we start to wonder why there is so much fighting in the world. But when we retreat from there, and see each other across a tribal line, it is very easy for us to accuse each other of all manner of terrible things.
But how to deal with defacto insulation is a very, very big question. At the micro level, I'm not about to move my family into a different city just so they are exposed to different viewpoints and life experiences. I value that my city has a fair amount of diversity, including socio-economic diversity--but I also value that it has strong property values, strong schools, and is safe to live in--all of which are very closely associated with being the home of a high proportion of high wage earners. 

Wow--this has turned into quite the rant that I have no interest in editing so... those are my rough thoughts [post]

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #227 on: March 04, 2025, 02:48:56 PM »
I'm always too busy to type that much
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Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #228 on: March 04, 2025, 02:54:30 PM »
I'm always too busy to type that much
Imagine he wasn't busy at work ....

SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #229 on: March 04, 2025, 03:04:58 PM »
Or he was just trying to avoid work for a few minutes...

847badgerfan

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #230 on: March 04, 2025, 03:24:04 PM »
Or he was just trying to avoid work for a few minutes hours...

Fixed.
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SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #231 on: March 04, 2025, 04:05:39 PM »
Well, this little rant wasn't an hour, but my time here this morning has been...more than necessary. :-)

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #232 on: March 04, 2025, 04:28:10 PM »
I also agree that we seem to be further insulating ourselves from each other. It's what I've heard referred to as the frequent flyer, or airline pricing effect. In a simpler economy, and in a less connected world, in the Depression years, and in the immediately post-WWII years (including as long as we had a big external threat in the Soviet Union), we were more connected than I think we are now. We divide ourselves, in schools, in subdivisions, in parks, in clubs (actually, we largely don't participate in clubs anymore), in churches, even in which seats we sit in on airplanes, and now--especially now--through algorithms that identify our interests and target us with information (largely driven by advertising dollars), largely along socio-economic lines. The more we insulate ourselves, the harder it is to feel empathy for each other, the harder it is for us to even understand where the others are coming from. There was a lot of this that was very overt in reaction to changes that came as the result of the civil rights movement, and there is a lot of it that has absolutely nothing to do with that.

In support of this point, I've been studying theology informally for the past ~1.5ish years.  There seems to be a prevalent strain of thought subsisting through the Roman Catholic and Mainline Protestant traditions which says that while the rights of the individual are crucial to a Christian society (and, frankly, vice versa), the modern-day, radical individualism is neither encapsulated in nor prescribed by historic Christianity.  i.e., it believes in individual rights, liberties, and freedoms, but it's not good to come to a place where everyone is just doing whatever they feel like doing with no regard to the wider society.  You write here that we're split into further factions these days, and that exacerbates what I think I'm mentioning here, which is that we're not looking outside of ourselves enough when we consider what's "best."  (That probably sounds like some hippie, socialist-loving, utopia-hunting, tree-hugging-liberal stuff, and I assure you, it's not :-D )

In, well, not rebuttal, but maybe addition to, this point....while I think there is a ton of explanatory power in what you said, I do think we're also dealing with some very disparate sets of values in our culture today.  There are some old studies that show that people across the political spectrum largely have the same values, but they tend to disagree on the order of priority and on means of achieving or actualizing said values.  I'm not convinced that's true anymore.  Given the underpinnings of what many advocate for these days, it seems we're dealing with some more foundational differences in core principles than we've dealt with in much of the modern era of politics.  The effect serves to further insulate us, perhaps as much or more as the technological advances mixed with confirmation bias you outlined above.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #233 on: March 04, 2025, 07:43:36 PM »
Don't want you to think that I'm evading this--just have been really busy at work.
There is obviously a LOT to unpack here so I'm going to break responses into sections.  

First, Unions:
For years I've said that:
  • If you can't admit that Unions have done some good things, you are too anti-Union ideologically biased to have a serious discussion about the topic, and
  • If you can't admit that Unions have done some harm, you are too pro-Union ideologically biased to have a serious discussion about the topic.  
Frankly, I think that part of the problem is that for various reasons (mostly legal/political), US Unions are essentially set-up in the most adversarial way possible.  This ends up harming the Unions, their members, and their employers but everyone is kinda locked into their roles so here we are.  

My dad just HATED unions because of an experience that he had early in his career.  He used to do trade shows in Chicago and the Electricians Union at McCormak (sp?) Place had instituted a restriction that only a UNION Electrician could do anything electrical.  This restriction might sound reasonable until you understand that it literally included plugging in the display.  Then, to make it worse, the Union Electricians had a minimum call of something like an hour so they would charge vendors for one hour of labor at inflated Chicago Union Electrician wages to plug in a lamp.  Then, to make it worse, the Union Electricians at McCormak Place were habitually unavailable during normal hours and if you had to have one after hours you got dinged for time-and-a-half and a longer minimum call so you ended up paying three hours of Chicago Union Electrician wages to plug in a lamp.  

Another example is a friend of mine from my early days as an accountant.  During college he had worked at a UAW Automotive factory in security.  He had a couple of observations:
  • He literally had a grievance filed against him, had to attend a grievance hearing, and got written up for picking up a piece of trash.  Apparently the trash-picker-upper Union objected to a Security Union guy taking their work away from them.  
  • WC Injuries were VASTLY more common first thing Monday morning.  He saw guys walking in wincing in pain just so that they could get to their workstation and claim that the injury occurred at work thus making it a BWC injury for which they would get wage replacement.  

I have one more example that is more current and that I have first-hand knowledge of.  The RR industry is HEAVILY regulated by the Federal Government and it is also HEAVILY unionized, like basically anyone anywhere close to a train is in a Union.  When we pave a street at a RR Crossing there is some Federal/Union regulation/requirement that we have to have a RR Union "Train watcher-outer" to stand at the RR Crossing to let our construction guys know when a Train is coming.  Now first of all, this is patently ridiculous.  Our Construction guys obviously know what Trains are and could watch out for them themselves.  For that matter, my five year old LOVES trains and he literally could do this job, he'd love it.  But it gets worse.  They have periodic Union-mandated breaks so you can't just have ONE "Train watcher-outer", oh no, you have to have two so that they can cover each other's breaks and lord help you if you do any after-hours construction work because then you get to pay time-and-a-half which means three hours per hour (because there are two of them) and I think we get charged around $125/hour per Train watcher-outer for this "service".  

I'm not saying that Unions haven't done good things (see point #1 way above) but I'm writing these out to make the point that they clearly do bad things as well.  They often act as cartels (Chicago Electrician's Cartel, UAW Trash-picker-upper Cartel) in an effort to force work to themselves.  This type of nonsense massively inflates prices and only works so long as there is no viable competition.  


In the immediate postwar era there wasn't any offshore competition.  Germany and Japan were digging out from under the rubble that we had created by bombing their cities/factories, the British couldn't keep up with their own internal demands, China, India, Korea et al simply weren't sufficiently industrialized to manufacture anything complex so the UAW could demand whatever it wanted and as long as the Big Three (GM, Ford, Chrysler) were all roughly on the same page the customers didn't have any other viable options so tough.  

The US Auto industry frankly got fat and happy and then the Germans and Japanese (later also Koreans, Chinese, etc) showed up with cars that were better for a lot less money.  

Your acknowledgement of the inherent conflict between Labor and Civil Rights is rare and an important point.  Government entities have to pay what are called "Davis Bacon Wages" on Construction projects.  This is because back in the 1920's Unions saw employers hiring cheaper southern blacks and rebelled.  Davis Bacon was initially passed to keep construction jobs for high wage Union (white) workers from going to low wage (black) workers.  It is STILL law.  

My dad was born in 1940 and graduated HS in 1958.  One of his friends is a guy I still see around town.  This friend of his did a couple years in the Army in the (lucky) lull between Korea (ended in 1953) and Vietnam (heated up in 1964/5) then got a UAW Job at a Ford plant not far from here.  For guys like him, these were GREAT jobs.  He retired at ~50 in the late 80's / early 90's then did concrete while collecting a rich Ford/UAW pension.  The problem is that this was never sustainable.  

I think that a lot of times we look at the 1950's labor environment and think we can replicate that and . . . we can't.  

On top of that, my dad's friend was a reasonably smart guy.  I don't mean to say he was Einstein, he was no rocket scientist but he was smart enough that Ford/UAW trained him to be a pattern maker.  For the most part, guys smart enough to do higher-level labor like that don't end up going to work for Ford anymore anyway because instead they go to college.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #234 on: March 04, 2025, 07:57:50 PM »
You mentioned Pensions:
ERISA has been an interest of mine ever since law school.  So the brief history of ERISA is that when Studebaker went greasy side up their thousands of employees who had been promised a pension were mostly left out in the cold and this created the Political impetus to fix the Pension issue.  It wasn't just Studebaker, there were also multiple instances of Union Pension Funds being misappropriated (the movie Hoffa touches on this).  

Briefly:
Before ERISA if you worked for me and I offered a Pension, the Pension was simply a promise from @medinabuckeye1 to you.  The obvious problem here is that the promise only had value so long as @medinabuckeye1 was solvent and a collectible defendant.  If and when @medinabuckeye1 went broke, the pension was worth less than the paper it was printed on.  

ERISA changed all of this.  Post-ERISA, if I want to offer you a pension, I have to fund it according to actuarial requirements laid out by the Feds and the funds that I put into your pension are held in a constructive trust so that if I go bankrupt my other creditors can't grab your pension assets to satisfy my other obligations.  

I think that ERISA is definitely a good thing and that it should be applied to Public Sector Pensions (this is a MASSIVE side issue) but the downside is that almost all employers have dropped their defined benefit pension plans.  ERISA compliance is famously expensive and this is why almost nobody gets a Company Pension like in the old days.  Instead, workers who do get Pensions get 401k's and the like.  

MarqHusker

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #235 on: March 04, 2025, 08:45:05 PM »
in the legal world we call this onerous.

I still have 'two' separate pension benefits (from a prior private employer).   they had gradually been refashioning their pension plans, which is why I have two separate pension benefits.   It's impossible to attempt to evaluate the benefits, despite all of these tools they provide employees.  Half the time, the result I get is, 'sorry, your shit is really complex, call #888.....for more detailed information

I basically forecast a budget inclusive of pension benefits to pay for my future utilities in retirement.  Anything past that is speculative.

meanwhile, many of the public pensions are a time bomb.   I was a public employee for a hot minute years ago and get an annual pension benefits statement.  It is comical how 'rich' my payout will be for my minuscule tenure as a State employee.    People wonder why 'Act 10' was such a big deal in WI for so many years,   Unsustainable.   ERISA applying to public pensions.....a little too late for that, I'm afraid.

847badgerfan

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #236 on: March 05, 2025, 09:16:07 AM »
He used to do trade shows in Chicago and the Electricians Union at McCormak (sp?) Place had instituted a restriction that only a UNION Electrician could do anything electrical.  
McCormick.

This applies not only to electrical. It applies to ANY trade.

Union carpenters must do booth assembly. Anything with water? Union plumbers. And on and on.

It is still that way.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #237 on: March 05, 2025, 11:16:22 AM »
meanwhile, many of the public pensions are a time bomb.  I was a public employee for a hot minute years ago and get an annual pension benefits statement.  It is comical how 'rich' my payout will be for my minuscule tenure as a State employee.    People wonder why 'Act 10' was such a big deal in WI for so many years,  Unsustainable.  ERISA applying to public pensions.....a little too late for that, I'm afraid.

Hmm.  I'm currently a state employee (Texas) and as best as I can figure/predict from what our pension is, it ain't too hot.  My mom was a long-time state employee (Louisiana) and her pension, while safe and better than nothing, is....not great.  

I must be living in the wrong states.

 

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