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Topic: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2025, 11:56:42 AM »
if you wanted to limit the wealth disparity I think you'd have to enforce anti-trust laws first- which no one has really done in decades- they are there for a reason- to try and prevent concentration of mass wealth/power and to open up competition. you'd have to basically end government handouts and bailouts of large corporations and let them fail and die when they fail. you have to overhaul all the regulatory agencies- slash regulations that either favor big players and/or prevent competition from smaller players, and end corporate regulatory capture and root out conflict of interest. we don't really have a free market in this country- we have some sort of weird mixed system built on crony capitalism.

I think these issues are even more pressing matters than taxes imo.
Troubles me to agree with @Mdot21 but this is true.  

In a lot of ways our goofy system is a combination of the worst aspects of capitalism and the worst aspects of socialism.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2025, 12:12:46 PM »
I was poking fun of the Democrats for their messaging on "we have the good billionaires!"....

But yes, I know. He is not. Nor a healthy one that should be lecturing anyone about health or giving any sort of health advice.....



https://twitter.com/jonnygroves/status/1894004087043031111



One wonders how that guy on the right could push on much of anything.  

Or how successful he'd be pushing against the guy on the left.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2025, 12:14:05 PM »
Troubles me to agree with @Mdot21 but this is true. 

Troubles me to apparently be agreeing with SFBadger so much lately, too.  

These are the strange times we live in.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2025, 12:24:10 PM »

The problem, as I see it, is more that the working poor have been getting poorer for generations now.  In the 1960's-1970's there were a lot of blue collar men who fully supported their families on ONLY their income and lived reasonably well.  They weren't jet-set rich, but they could afford homes and cars and child-rearing on ONE blue-collar income. 

That isn't even remotely possible today.  Even after doubling the workers for those families by sending the wives into the workforce they are STILL worse off financially today than their equivalents were ~50 years ago with only ONE income. 

...


This is also multi-generational now so in many cases:
  • Kid #1 also has four college educated grandparents and a few college educated aunts and uncles. 
  • Kid #2 doesn't have any immediate family educated much beyond HS. 

One of the (probably few) things I agreed with Obama on was how he hammered on this.  He did draw attention to the very real, measurable, disparate outcomes between two-parent children and anything other than the two-parent household (single parent, raised by grandparents, foster care, etc.).  

I truncated your post, but in total those are the things that nobody will talk about, and I'm convinced they're foundational to the most significant problems, in a lot of areas, income prospects being only one.  I won't say there isn't anything politicians can do about it, but the vast majority of the shift would have to be cultural and sociological.  

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2025, 12:31:37 PM »
I truly believe that wealth inequality is one of the most troubling issues in our Country.

We are heading down a road towards being like our Central and South American neighbors with a fantastically rich over-class and massive slums for everyone else.

Democrats talk about this some but most of their policies make it worse. Republicans don't generally talk about it and should.
I don't understand your stance on weath inequlity. 

IMHO, as long as the super wealthy are not hindering those of us in the lower classes from succeeding, where is the harm? Not everyone is going to be successful. Some will and of that group, a few here and there will far exceed successful and fall into the group of the ultra wealthy. 

Right now, Musk, Bezos and Gates all made their money by working hard and finding a market that they could exploit. They broke no rules, just hard work and perserverance. their accusition of wealth in no way affected me or my persuit of success. As a matter of fact, I was able to piggy back on Gates's contributions to become successful in my career field. 

The lower class poor in this country would be considered rich by may other conutries standards. And while I don't have the luxeries affordable to the billionare class, their having that wealth has not hurt me in the slightest. I don't see the issue. 

SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2025, 12:33:46 PM »
The antitrust question is an interesting one. The laws haven't changed (in a very long time), but the government enforcement changed dramatically. My recollection is that the big change occurred under the Reagan Administration, but feel free to fact check that. The big change was that instead of protecting the number of competitors in a given market, the DOJ's antitrust enforcement division changed its focus to the impact on price competition. That helps really large companies against small compeitors because economies of scale will always favor Amazon over your local retailer (or your local-ish distributor who sells to your local retailer). And it allows for far fewer competitors. Hence, consolidation. As long as there is still price competition, the DOJ won't step in.

This is a good example of how enforcement decisions can dramatically change the way a law (or set of laws) works. But try to rally people around telling DOJ antitrust attorneys how to determine what is pro-competitive. It gets a little wonky and dry.

The income gap is a large and growing problem. I think it's pretty easy to see how it is impacting politics in the country (which is to say it is destabilizing). I'm curious what you guys think caused this and what can help the working poor catch back up to the 1950s/60s era gap. I have my own perspective, but I'm curious what yours is.

FYI: one major impact on wealth in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s was that this country was the only industrialized nation that emerged from WWII with a fully functioning industrial economy. When it was time to rebuild the world you needed to buy from the U.S. to do it. That provided a major boost to our economic fortunes.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2025, 12:39:03 PM »
if you wanted to limit the wealth disparity I think you'd have to enforce anti-trust laws first- which no one has really done in decades- they are there for a reason- to try and prevent concentration of mass wealth/power and to open up competition. you'd have to basically end government handouts and bailouts of large corporations and let them fail and die when they fail. you have to overhaul all the regulatory agencies- slash regulations that either favor big players and/or prevent competition from smaller players, and end corporate regulatory capture and root out conflict of interest. we don't really have a free market in this country- we have some sort of weird mixed system built on crony capitalism.

I think these issues are even more pressing matters than taxes imo.
BINGO! 
(Hard to believe I am agreeing with a fan of that team up north) :)

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2025, 12:46:08 PM »
The income gap is perhaps more relevant than a wealth gap.  As noted above, the fact that Joe X. has a zillion dollars doesn't change my own quality of life.  We "live" off income, one way or the other.  Being stressed to pay bills is a factor for many, credit card debt, student loan debt, you get underwater quickly.  You pay rent, you don't own.  Your job may not be appealing but you can't find another.  The chart below is one interesting item:


SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2025, 12:47:02 PM »
Does anyone disagree that the wealthy will always wield more power than the middle class and the poor?

And does anyone disagree that the experiment of trying to actually eradicate private wealth was a collossuly awful failure?

However, the converse--the wealthy being so wealthy that they can effectively control everything to their benefit has a longer history than constitutional democracy does: they were called kingdoms. I wouldn't volunteer to go back to that system of government.

It's almost as if you need some balance. And if so, how do you create and maintain that balance?

Mdot21

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2025, 12:47:28 PM »
The antitrust question is an interesting one. The laws haven't changed (in a very long time), but the government enforcement changed dramatically. My recollection is that the big change occurred under the Reagan Administration, but feel free to fact check that. The big change was that instead of protecting the number of competitors in a given market, the DOJ's antitrust enforcement division changed its focus to the impact on price competition. That helps really large companies against small compeitors because economies of scale will always favor Amazon over your local retailer (or your local-ish distributor who sells to your local retailer). And it allows for far fewer competitors. Hence, consolidation. As long as there is still price competition, the DOJ won't step in.

This is a good example of how enforcement decisions can dramatically change the way a law (or set of laws) works. But try to rally people around telling DOJ antitrust attorneys how to determine what is pro-competitive. It gets a little wonky and dry.

The income gap is a large and growing problem. I think it's pretty easy to see how it is impacting politics in the country (which is to say it is destabilizing). I'm curious what you guys think caused this and what can help the working poor catch back up to the 1950s/60s era gap. I have my own perspective, but I'm curious what yours is.

FYI: one major impact on wealth in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s was that this country was the only industrialized nation that emerged from WWII with a fully functioning industrial economy. When it was time to rebuild the world you needed to buy from the U.S. to do it. That provided a major boost to our economic fortunes.
yup- and that is despite having very high marginal tax rates. 

I believe that if you actually produce and manufacture and make things- that generates real wealth- and it spreads to many people not just a select few. we don't really do that anymore- we have a service economy large chunks of corporate profits are financialization casino money games on Wall Street and Healthcare related. 

China brought 800 million people out of extreme poverty and is arguably the greatest economy in the world right now- and they did it on the back of actually making/producing things- right now they manufacture around 33% of the entire worlds goods. 

SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2025, 12:48:14 PM »
yup- and that is despite having very high marginal tax rates.

I believe that if you actually produce and manufacture and make things- that generates real wealth- and it spreads to many people not just a select few. we don't really do that anymore- we have a service economy large chunks of corporate profits are financialization casino money games on Wall Street and Healthcare related.

China brought 800 million people out of extreme poverty and is arguably the greatest economy in the world right now- and they did it on the back of actually making/producing things- right now they manufacture around 33% of the entire worlds goods.
see antitrust discussion, above.

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #193 on: February 26, 2025, 12:48:29 PM »
One approach I'd like to flesh out more is a "guaranteed income".  We spend a lot on various programs, what if we just spent it all on this.  You get this income guaranteed, the support declines as you work and earn more, but you still get some for a while.  It ends poverty, simply.  And yes, some would waste the money.

No welfare, no SNAP, no Section 8, no nothing, just send in your income statement and get paid, sort of akin to the income tax earned income tax credit.


SFBadger96

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #194 on: February 26, 2025, 12:54:07 PM »
One approach I'd like to flesh out more is a "guaranteed income".  We spend a lot on various programs, what if we just spent it all on this.  You get this income guaranteed, the support declines as you work and earn more, but you still get some for a while.  It ends poverty, simply.  And yes, some would waste the money.

No welfare, no SNAP, no Section 8, no nothing, just send in your income statement and get paid, sort of akin to the income tax earned income tax credit.


The concept is soooo hard for me to get my head around because this is the definition of a hand out.
But the reality of the connection between poverty and all of these social ills is also so strong that it is an interesting question whether the hand out is actually the more cost effective way of addressing these problems. Many people argue (and I'm no economist, but the argument has a logical feel to it), that such handouts would just result in inflation and wouldn't end up solving anything.
BUT, there are plenty of places that basically do this already: Alaska, for instance. The state generates revenue as a result of its natural resources that it then redistributes to all of its established residents (I'm sure there are some vagaries there that I'm not accounting for). So, at a national level, the concept is that our nation is so profitable that we can share a wealth dividend with everyone--or at least anyone who needs it (with, presumably, some kind of graduation built in).

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #195 on: February 26, 2025, 12:57:49 PM »
The concept is soooo hard for me to get my head around because this is the definition of a hand out.
It is a direct handout instead of a bunch of other de facto handouts.  The poverty programs don't work, they had some impact initially, and virtually none sense.  Time to rethink it all.  And how much of the money appropriated for SNAP actually goes to the beneficiary?  Maybe it's 70%, maybe less, my approach would probably be 95% passthrough efficient.

Maybe.

So, every legal resident would get enough to be over the poverty line.  And nothing else (unless a state wanted to do something).

 

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