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Topic: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center

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Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2025, 09:55:12 AM »
I'm reading about Germany getting polarized, the center groups lost votes and the right and left won more than normal.

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2025, 09:56:30 AM »
so, at least 4 parties (groups)??
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Gigem

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2025, 10:16:22 AM »
It'd be nice if every country got on the same page, because all would benefit.

But if just one doesn't, the super-wealthy will all flock there to house their monies.  I guess because you don't become a billionaire by paying your fair share. 

God forbid. 
I don't agree with this in the least.  You seem to think that the government would actually use the money wisely and it would benefit the populace with whatever program you think would help people (healthcare, housing, whatever you pick).  It wouldn't.  They would more than likely waste 90% of the money, still run a deficit, and get almost nothing done.  The other thing is that you seem to be under the impression that billionaires don't pay taxes.  While I'm sure that a lot of them avoid taxes or minimize taxes, a lot of them do in fact pay a lot of taxes.  Elon Musk, everybody's favorite hate'em rich guy lately, paid several billions in taxes to the feds a few years back.  4-5 billion in taxes if I recall. 

During the 2016 election there was a debate between Trump and Hillary where she was attempting to cut him down over the fact that he did not pay taxes.  It was a very famous exchange, one that I think may have singed Hillary bad enough to lose her the election.  Hillary basically said that Trump did not pay taxes, and Trump said that the people in charge set the system up, rich people that backed people like Hillary and that she (and by extension her Husband) could have changed it years ago but didn't.  Now, whatever you think of Trump and my views on him have certainly evolved over these last 8 years, 90% of the people who watched this knew then that he was right, and they know now that he was right.  

You work in a government setting.  You know that one of the biggest "anything killers" is the bureaucracy.  It's the bureaucracy that we need to diminish.  The bureaucracy is what keeps taxes from doing what they need to do, the middleman and the endless regulatory and paperwork.  There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in taxing people more if the money will just be wasted.  

jgvol

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2025, 11:08:42 AM »
I don't agree with this in the least.  You seem to think that the government would actually use the money wisely and it would benefit the populace with whatever program you think would help people (healthcare, housing, whatever you pick).  It wouldn't.  They would more than likely waste 90% of the money, still run a deficit, and get almost nothing done.  The other thing is that you seem to be under the impression that billionaires don't pay taxes.  While I'm sure that a lot of them avoid taxes or minimize taxes, a lot of them do in fact pay a lot of taxes.  Elon Musk, everybody's favorite hate'em rich guy lately, paid several billions in taxes to the feds a few years back.  4-5 billion in taxes if I recall.

During the 2016 election there was a debate between Trump and Hillary where she was attempting to cut him down over the fact that he did not pay taxes.  It was a very famous exchange, one that I think may have singed Hillary bad enough to lose her the election.  Hillary basically said that Trump did not pay taxes, and Trump said that the people in charge set the system up, rich people that backed people like Hillary and that she (and by extension her Husband) could have changed it years ago but didn't.  Now, whatever you think of Trump and my views on him have certainly evolved over these last 8 years, 90% of the people who watched this knew then that he was right, and they know now that he was right. 

You work in a government setting.  You know that one of the biggest "anything killers" is the bureaucracy.  It's the bureaucracy that we need to diminish.  The bureaucracy is what keeps taxes from doing what they need to do, the middleman and the endless regulatory and paperwork.  There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in taxing people more if the money will just be wasted. 

And even still....when Maddow got ahold of one year of Trump's taxes --- I think he paid 36 million that year.

She was so disappointed.

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2025, 11:14:00 AM »
She was so evil and Stoopid
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2025, 12:08:56 PM »
so, at least 4 parties (groups)??
They probably have 30, but I think four are of some consequence.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2025, 12:46:51 PM »
It'd be nice if every country got on the same page, because all would benefit.

But if just one doesn't, the super-wealthy will all flock there to house their monies.  I guess because you don't become a billionaire by paying your fair share. 

God forbid. 

How much do you want them to pay?

According to the IRS publicly available data (because the resident jaded Dawg only listens if you can cite a source), the fabled 1% pay 46% of all federal taxes collected.  The top 10% earners pay 76% of taxes collected.  (I don't recall if that was for one particular year or a period of time, but anyone can scrape the data for themselves from irs.gov)

So....how hard exactly do we hammer these guys/gals?  

Billionaires definitely have tax shelters (hell, I did too when I owned my own business and I was nowhere near the Top 10%, let alone 1%ers) and they certainly leverage loopholes.  People also miss the facts of how that stuff works over time.  

CD is right about one thing.  You could confiscate ALL of the American billionaire's money, and it would barely make a dent, or change hardly anything.  

Griping about billionaires has always sounded to me like a sound byte for people bitter about not having that much net worth.  Which, fine, but just don't act like taxing them more is going to lead to any wanted results.  And it's just goofy as far as understanding what it is those people "have."  No billionaire has billions of dollars sitting around in a bank, which is what people seem to think.  They own stuff.  How exactly does the federal government propose to take buildings, stocks, etc. and redistribute that to the poor people those unselfish altruists in DC would absolutely serve, if only they could get those billionaires to pony up.  It's like people think the Elons of the world are Scrooge McDuck, rolling around in his massive vault of gold coins.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2025, 12:56:26 PM »
A major key for billionaires is how they can easily avoid having any taxable income with no tricks, no dodges, no off shoring, no anything.

My quippy definition of a rich person is "Someone who doesn't need income for their lifestyle".

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2025, 12:57:24 PM »
As of the end of 2024, the total wealth of billionaires in the United States was $6.72 trillion, according to Forbes. This includes 813 billionaires.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2025, 01:17:24 PM »
As of the end of 2024, the total wealth of billionaires in the United States was $6.72 trillion, according to Forbes. This includes 813 billionaires.

Cool, so we could fund federal spending for a year if we took every last thing every billionaire owned, perfectly liquidated it, and funneled it to the government.  I'm sure the non-billionaires would be thrilled for that year, except for that they'd be sad when they had to start paying WAY more taxes the following year, and every year thereafter, because there's no more billionaires left to pick up the bulk of the taxes paid.  They'd also be pretty sore about all the jobs that would be permanently lost if billionaires were liquidated.  

You could say this is hyperbole.  Same thing would still apply to a lesser degree, by however much you ramp up the billionaire tax.  

The key is going to lie in less government spending, not higher taxes, particularly for the rich.  If less government spending can be achieved, therein will lie the solution.  If that can't be achieved, therein will lie the eventual downfall of the economy, or a radical restructuring such that the country is permanently altered.   

FearlessF

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2025, 01:30:16 PM »
but, but, but, billionaires are evil and take advantage of the masses

they should be called names and punished
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2025, 01:41:34 PM »
"Hauser's Law" (or rule) is fascinating, to me.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2025, 01:44:37 PM »
but, but, but, billionaires are evil and take advantage of the masses

they should be called names and punished

Well, they do largely vote democrat and support democratic candidates, so ok, they're evil and I'll call them names.

Most of the left is fine with billionaires until they support the wrong candidate.  My friends and family want Elon to pay more/go away/go to hell, etc.  They're cool with Mark Cuban.  

GopherRock

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Re: Academic discussion (we'll try) of politics shift away from center
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2025, 01:49:00 PM »
Well, they do largely vote democrat Republican and support democratic Republican candidates, so ok, they're evil and I'll call them names.

Most of the left is fine with billionaires until they support the wrong candidate.  My friends and family want Elon to pay more/go away/go to hell, etc.  They're cool with Mark Cuban. 
FIFY

The rich have always voted Republican. They're the only ones who can afford it.

 

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