2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread

[ELA]

If they grab an outside hire, will be interested if they retain Diebler or if he takes some smaller job to start that part of his career.

At least it was a fun game.

That means hell wind up in Madison a decade later

[medinabuckeye1]

I didn't watch the OSU game, but reading the play by play has the Buckeyes up 3 with two minutes left, and every call then goes Illinois way? (6 straight free throws by the bad guys) Did OSU choke it away? did refs call it fair?

If you want to complain about a call, the most impactful call that hurt us was a bit earlier in the game, the call that led me to make this comment:

Shannon is awfully lucky to be shooting FT's instead of ejected.

The impact wasn't so much the FT's as the fact that Shannon already had four and this charge that got called a block would have been his fifth. Without him at the end it might have gone the other way. 

That said, most of the questionable calls that didn't go our way weren't definitively wrong, just close calls that could reasonably have gone either way. 

Also, the real dagger was an offensive foul called on Zed Key that was absolutely the right call. Key was trying to set a pick and I *THINK* he just lost his balance but in any case he fell into the Illinois player.

[medinabuckeye1]

I mean, clearly they turned up the aggression and the improved over a handful of games. So that's good. But the overall program isn't going to be about that. They could get really good, stay average, or go in the toilet. Diebs could go and kill it somewhere else. So could Dusty May. What if Holtmann turns Depaul around? There are no moral victories - we will see if good decisions were and are get made or not.

LoL.
When you are in a hole the first step is to stop digging. We FINALLY stopped digging on Valentines Day.

Holtmann was a failure at Ohio State.  Period. Full stop. There is no debating this. What he does or doesn't do at DePaul will never change the fact that Holtmann was a failure at Ohio State. Period. Full stop.

You have been arguing that point with me for two years and you've been wrong the whole time. Let it go. He sucked at Ohio State.

That said, Gene Smith screwed this situation up six ways to Sunday:

• The raise and extension. Holtmann's first five years were mediocre at best. In retrospect he should have been canned after the 2021-2022 season. Firing him then would have been risky so I don't fault Smith for keeping him but the raise and extension were unforced errors and that was obvious then.
• After the loss to Minnesota last year I posted that "Holtmann should be fired tonight". He should have been. Instead we wasted the rest of the 2022-2023 season and the entirety of the 2023-2024 season on a failed coach.
• Right after the 2OT home win over a crappy Maryland team on February 10 I made a post in which I acknowledged that I had come to the conclusion that Holtmann would serve out the season. I did that because there was no point in firing him after that. I knew then that there wasn't enough time for an interim coach to turn things around. Diebler almost proved me wrong. The timing of Holtmann's firing was literally as bad as it could possibly have been. Diebler had just long enough to tantalize but not quite long enough to make it obvious that he should or shouldn't be retained. Holtmann should have been fired immediately after the Michigan loss on January 15. That was the second consecutive year of losing to the worst team in the league (MN last year) and completely unacceptable. At the time the Buckeyes were 12-5/2-4 so Diebler would have had 14 games to show us what he could do and he could have made the NCAA with a finish of 9-5 or 8-6 with a decent run in Minneapolis. Instead Smith waited until Holtmann had dug us into an enormous hole then handed the reigns to Diebler in a situation where he either needed to finish the regular season 6-0 and win a game in Minneapolis or be near perfect or perfect in the BTT.

[grillrat]

Wow.  I have a strong suspicion that Woodson just purposely got his second technical /ejection because he had no desire to sit there and watch his team lose by 30.

[Hawkinole]

https://youtu.be/ExGDa00BxMI
This Iowa WBB video is amazing. My little sis' played for the Hawkeyes 47 years ago, in front of me, and her parents and maybe 100. Everything has changed. Yet Coach Bluder connects with my sister's 1st coach, Lark Birdsong, who was Iowa's 1st WBB coach.

[MaximumSam]

Holtmann was a failure at Ohio State.  Period. Full stop. There is no debating this. What he does or doesn't do at DePaul will never change the fact that Holtmann was a failure at Ohio State. Period. Full stop.

You have been arguing that point with me for two years and you've been wrong the whole time. Let it go. He sucked at Ohio State.

Buddy, I hope you are right. However, sports fans do tend to live in the Matrix and not reality. If Holtmann goes and kills it at Depaul and we miss the tourney four times, then it will have been a bad decision. There is no running from that, or wishing it way, or even debating it. Obviously, I hope you are right and he was a huge problem and hiring whoever will lead to Ohio State Glory for a decade. 


OSU has, potentially, a really good team coming back next year. They are in a weird spot and honestly I don't know what they are going to do. I thought if they made the tourney that would do it for Diebler. Doesn't appear that will happen, so I don't have much insight there. Will they accept an NIT bid? FAU looks to be in the tourney, can't hire Dusty May until they get bounced. The portal opens on Sunday. Going to be an interesting month.

[847badgerfan]

If they grab an outside hire, will be interested if they retain Diebler or if he takes some smaller job to start that part of his career.

At least it was a fun game.

OSU got F'd.

[847badgerfan]

Good news.

********************

MINNEAPOLIS -- If 5-seed Wisconsin (21-12) is going to knock off 1-seed Purdue (29-3) in Saturday's Big Ten Tournament semifinals, they'll likely need all hands on deck. That certainly includes Chucky Hepburn, who didn't play in Friday's 70-61 quarterfinal victory over Northwestern.

Hepburn, who said following Thursday's second round win over win over Maryland he had been battling knee soreness, was a late scratch from the lineup against the Wildcats. However, Hepburn expects his knee to be good enough for Saturday's semifinals.

"I don't know if I could play today, but I'll definitely be able to play tomorrow," Hepburn told Badger247.

Hepburn didn't go into too much detail on his injury, but said his knee wasn't holding up during Friday's practice. It wasn't until right before tip-off when Hepburn, who also missed a good chunk of the second half in Sunday's loss to Purdue after taking a shot to the face, told the team he'd be unavailable against the Wildcats.

"We found out around right before tip-off," said junior guard Kamari McGee. "We had to adjust on the fly."

[847badgerfan]

As for today's games:

If the refs don't treat the giant Elbowsaurus and Shannon with kid gloves and let them get away with everything, Wisconsin and Nebraska have a chance to win, respectively.

I wouldn't bet on it.

[FearlessF]

Husker tipoff 2:30pm

Fearless tee time 2:30pm

Going to the course early to change oil in the cart and fill with fresh gasoline

Gonna be windy, but I'll suffer through with 55 degree temps

I did watch the game last night after my round

first half at the bar eating corned beef and cabbage
2nd half at home in the lazy boy

Skers played well

[betarhoalphadelta]

Buddy, I hope you are right. However, sports fans do tend to live in the Matrix and not reality. If Holtmann goes and kills it at Depaul and we miss the tourney four times, then it will have been a bad decision. There is no running from that, or wishing it way, or even debating it. Obviously, I hope you are right and he was a huge problem and hiring whoever will lead to Ohio State Glory for a decade.

As mentioned, that's not how decision-making analysis works. What Holtmann does at DePaul is irrelevant to what he would have done over the next four years at OSU. DePaul and OSU are different situations with different opportunities and different constraints. It might be that Holtmann is ideally suited to operating in DePaul's situation and woefully inadequate to operating in OSU's situation.

The success or failure of the next coach at OSU is also irrelevant to what Holtmann would have done the next four years at OSU. The next coach very well may fail. That doesn't make firing Holtmann a bad decision. 

If you believe Holtmann would have turned it around and that OSU would have returned to the sort of performance that OSU expects, then your consideration that firing him was a bad decision is valid, no matter what the next coach does. Medina had come to the conclusion that with declining performance and a lack of trust that Holtmann was going to turn it around that it was a good decision, and that belief is also valid no matter what the next coach does. 

Because the next OSU coach failing doesn't mean that Holtmann would have succeeded at OSU, and Holtmann succeeding at DePaul doesn't mean he would have succeeded at OSU. Both are irrelevant. 

[MaximumSam]

As mentioned, that's not how decision-making analysis works. What Holtmann does at DePaul is irrelevant to what he would have done over the next four years at OSU. DePaul and OSU are different situations with different opportunities and different constraints. It might be that Holtmann is ideally suited to operating in DePaul's situation and woefully inadequate to operating in OSU's situation.

The success or failure of the next coach at OSU is also irrelevant to what Holtmann would have done the next four years at OSU. The next coach very well may fail. That doesn't make firing Holtmann a bad decision.

If you believe Holtmann would have turned it around and that OSU would have returned to the sort of performance that OSU expects, then your consideration that firing him was a bad decision is valid, no matter what the next coach does. Medina had come to the conclusion that with declining performance and a lack of trust that Holtmann was going to turn it around that it was a good decision, and that belief is also valid no matter what the next coach does.

Because the next OSU coach failing doesn't mean that Holtmann would have succeeded at OSU, and Holtmann succeeding at DePaul doesn't mean he would have succeeded at OSU. Both are irrelevant.

That is absolutely how decision making an analysis work. Sure, how he does at Depaul is not absolute proof of what he would have done at Ohio State. But is it relevant evidence? It 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt is. Like I said, this isn't the Matrix. If he goes and kills it at Depaul and OSU flounders, then it certainly is evidence that what was ailing the program may not have been the basketball coach. 

However, that is not my key point. My point is that if canning Holtmann makes the program worse, then it was a bad decision. If it makes the program better, it is a good decision. That isn't debatable. Someone's feelings don't matter here. The issue isn't how people feel about the basketball coach, it is whether decisions make the program better or worse. Holtmann was one thousand percent canned because the team wasn't good enough, so if canning him doesn't lead to more success, or directly causes the program to get worse, then it is a bad decision. 

I think it is wise to parse out two different concepts. One is the process of making a decision, which obviously doesn't include information of the future. The other is looking back and seeing if the decision was a good one, which does.

[betarhoalphadelta]

However, that is not my key point. My point is that if canning Holtmann makes the program worse, then it was a bad decision. If it makes the program better, it is a good decision. That isn't debatable. Someone's feelings don't matter here. The issue isn't how people feel about the basketball coach, it is whether decisions make the program better or worse. Holtmann was one thousand percent canned because the team wasn't good enough, so if canning him doesn't lead to more success, or directly causes the program to get worse, then it is a bad decision.

I think it is wise to parse out two different concepts. One is the process of making a decision, which obviously doesn't include information of the future. The other is looking back and seeing if the decision was a good one, which does.

Here's where I think you need to look at it differently. There are two decisions to be made:

• Should we fire our coach?
• Who should we hire as our next coach?

Obviously they are related questions--if you don't think there is a good coaching market where you'll find a suitable replacement, maybe you stick with the current guy another year to see if hiring conditions are better next time around or if he improves. But I think in the college coaching carousel there are nearly ALWAYS candidates worth hiring, so I don't think question #2 impacts question #1 all that much. Especially when (as OSU did) they fired him early signaling to potential replacements EARLY in the cycle that the job is available--it's not like when Matta left and the carousel had mostly stopped.

You have to evaluate Holtmann individually. "Is he the right coach to lead OSU?" If the answer is no, you HAVE to fire him. Full stop. THEN you hope that you make a good decision for question #2. 

Because even if the program is worse, you can also look at the trajectory Holtmann was on (down), and potentially think the program could have gotten worse WITH Holtmann as your coach. Recruits don't want to play for a coach on a downward trajectory. Fans don't want to fill seats for a team on a downward trajectory. It can become its own death spiral if you hang on. 

If Holtmann is the wrong guy, you can him and then let the chips fall as they may from there. 

[MaximumSam]

Here's where I think you need to look at it differently. There are two decisions to be made:

• Should we fire our coach?
• Who should we hire as our next coach?

Obviously they are related questions--if you don't think there is a good coaching market where you'll find a suitable replacement, maybe you stick with the current guy another year to see if hiring conditions are better next time around or if he improves. But I think in the college coaching carousel there are nearly ALWAYS candidates worth hiring, so I don't think question #2 impacts question #1 all that much. Especially when (as OSU did) they fired him early signaling to potential replacements EARLY in the cycle that the job is available--it's not like when Matta left and the carousel had mostly stopped.

You have to evaluate Holtmann individually. "Is he the right coach to lead OSU?" If the answer is no, you HAVE to fire him. Full stop. THEN you hope that you make a good decision for question #2.

Because even if the program is worse, you can also look at the trajectory Holtmann was on (down), and potentially think the program could have gotten worse WITH Holtmann as your coach. Recruits don't want to play for a coach on a downward trajectory. Fans don't want to fill seats for a team on a downward trajectory. It can become its own death spiral if you hang on.

If Holtmann is the wrong guy, you can him and then let the chips fall as they may from there.

I mean, sure. It's not like I'm out here cursing Gene Smith for firing him. All I've done is point out the very real risks with such a move. You have a team of freshmen and sophomores who can all leave tomorrow if they like. I'm optimistic they will find someone who keeps the team reasonably together and gets them back to what all the fans want. I'm worried they will be in portal hell for four years and then can whoever they hire and these last two years turn into six. Typical fan stuff.