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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #154 on: December 14, 2021, 10:09:01 PM »
Okay, so 25% of the black players and half the white dudes. 

Don't get mad at me because this small sample agrees with me.
?? 25% are white, 75% are black. And really, it's only Hutchinson. Scooby Wright got a handful of votes in 2014 because he had lots of glory stats. There is simply no evidence that Heisman voters reward undeserving white defensive players. Joey Bosa didn't even appear, and he was actually really good!

ELA

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #155 on: December 14, 2021, 10:44:07 PM »
Yeah....that was never my take....

Hutchinson was in my top 3.  I just said the only time defensive players seem to get recognized is when they play for a helmet school that lacks a viable offensive option

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #156 on: December 14, 2021, 11:10:41 PM »
?? 25% are white, 75% are black. And really, it's only Hutchinson. Scooby Wright got a handful of votes in 2014 because he had lots of glory stats. There is simply no evidence that Heisman voters reward undeserving white defensive players. Joey Bosa didn't even appear, and he was actually really good!
I love how you just dismiss Wright's season.  Impressive stuff.

How many other guys had 160+ tackles AND 15 sacks?  31 TFL.
I guess he didn't have enough pressures?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #157 on: December 14, 2021, 11:17:43 PM »
Yeah....that was never my take....

Hutchinson was in my top 3.  I just said the only time defensive players seem to get recognized is when they play for a helmet school that lacks a viable offensive option
I’m still unsure if the helmet thing is an indicator or just kind of lost in the wash. Being on a contender is a near requirement. Peppers is the only one who wasn’t on a playoff/title game team, and his candidacy was weird and dumb anyways.

Looking back, since that weird six-finalist 2013 group, you’ve had 29 finalists, seven are non helmet guys. The past four years had one non-helmet guy.

Pickett
Bryce Love
Lamar Jackson (returning Heisman winner)
Jackson
McCaffery
Gordon at more than 2,000 yards Mariota.

I’ll admit, I’m not without bias. I do think it’s good that they recognize any defensive players. In an era where QB numbers are making that position regularly have the best statistical case, I don’t mind throwing a few game wreckers, who’s impact I see, in the mix.

ELA

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #158 on: December 14, 2021, 11:37:43 PM »
I’m still unsure if the helmet thing is an indicator or just kind of lost in the wash. Being on a contender is a near requirement. Peppers is the only one who wasn’t on a playoff/title game team, and his candidacy was weird and dumb anyways.

Looking back, since that weird six-finalist 2013 group, you’ve had 29 finalists, seven are non helmet guys. The past four years had one non-helmet guy.

Pickett
Bryce Love
Lamar Jackson (returning Heisman winner)
Jackson
McCaffery
Gordon at more than 2,000 yards Mariota.

I’ll admit, I’m not without bias. I do think it’s good that they recognize any defensive players. In an era where QB numbers are making that position regularly have the best statistical case, I don’t mind throwing a few game wreckers, who’s impact I see, in the mix.
It's hard to say, but the non-helmet CFP teams (MSU, Washington) didn't get a finalist.  Shilique Calhoun had multiple elite years on title contending MSU teams, and wasn't in the Heisman discussion.  Budda Baker on a CFP Washington team in 2016 had a better year than Peppers.  The sample size is too small to say anything with certainty, but I think it's trends towards begin more narrative driven from a voter base that is easily the least dialed in compared to other awards.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #159 on: December 15, 2021, 12:30:13 AM »
It's hard to say, but the non-helmet CFP teams (MSU, Washington) didn't get a finalist.  Shilique Calhoun had multiple elite years on title contending MSU teams, and wasn't in the Heisman discussion.  Budda Baker on a CFP Washington team in 2016 had a better year than Peppers.  The sample size is too small to say anything with certainty, but I think it's trends towards begin more narrative driven from a voter base that is easily the least dialed in compared to other awards.
I mean, it's all narratives to a degree. The helmet idea is narrative. Whatever is happening in the posts above that I'm just not reading are narrative. 

From a purely analytical perspective, the two names you mentioned are kinda interesting. I think Baker's problem was the offensive guys. Browning was sixth. Baker had no pop stats. Hutchinson is at least second in the NCAA in sacks and had a couple high-profile games (unfairly part of all to it, but part just the same).

Calhoun is interesting. 14.5 TFL in 13 games, 10.5 sacks, three bat downs, one FF. Showed out against Iowa, I don't know if he felt that dominating. Might have been hurt by the skin of the teeth nature of that MSU team and Cook being "the guy." He ended up 9th. Henry won, which seemed kinda silly at the time, but looks better with his NFL career. 

(One year that was in retrospect stupid, and I think we all kinda bought the narrative was 2011. Montee Ball was a Heisman finalist and Russell Wilson wasn't. That was a weird, no exactly narrative moment, but fit and an anchor stat blinded us. Mathieu getting a finalist nod was interesting. He was more of an eye test guy than stat guy, and he was on that team that had one of the best regular seasons resume-wise)

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #160 on: December 15, 2021, 07:32:57 AM »
I love how you just dismiss Wright's season.  Impressive stuff.

How many other guys had 160+ tackles AND 15 sacks?  31 TFL.
I guess he didn't have enough pressures?
I'm not sure what the point is anymore. Aidan Hutchinson is the product of people loving white legacy players, which is borne out by Scooby Wright getting a few Heisman votes in 2014, and if you think he should have gotten more it is due to him being white and if you think he should have gotten less you are dismissing his great season.


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #161 on: December 15, 2021, 03:38:52 PM »
It's more like if Aidan Hutchinson was black, he'd finish something like 7th in the Heisman voting.  It's not that his whiteness lifts him up, it'd be that his fictional blackness would fail to.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #162 on: December 15, 2021, 03:46:38 PM »
It's more like if Aidan Hutchinson was black, he'd finish something like 7th in the Heisman voting.  It's not that his whiteness lifts him up, it'd be that his fictional blackness would fail to.
you live in a la-la fantasy land. must be nice.

MrNubbz

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #163 on: December 15, 2021, 03:48:08 PM »
Have them dial back the voltage at the home
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

ELA

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #164 on: December 15, 2021, 09:01:44 PM »
It's more like if Aidan Hutchinson was black, he'd finish something like 7th in the Heisman voting.  It's not that his whiteness lifts him up, it'd be that his fictional blackness would fail to.
You mean if he played for Baylor?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2021, 09:34:43 PM »
You mean if he played for Baylor?
Yes, and that too. 
I think the helmet aspect is less that it's Michigan, but more that it's resurgent Michigan. 

Greg Middleton had a similar season for IU in 2007.  But no one was on the internet saying he had the best season ever.  Weird.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2021, 10:25:24 PM »
Yes, and that too. 
I think the helmet aspect is less that it's Michigan, but more that it's resurgent Michigan. 

Greg Middleton had a similar season for IU in 2007.  But no one was on the internet saying he had the best season ever.  Weird.


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