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Topic: Misfits Thread

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7252 on: August 28, 2020, 08:42:37 AM »
Make it stop
Make what stop, the Republic? 

No thanks. 

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7253 on: August 28, 2020, 08:44:17 AM »
States are run by the parties as well.  I really dont think states governments selecting the senators would keep senators from reflecting which party runs the state.  While your goal is good your solution would not achieve it
bwarbiany posed a very good analysis of this a few pages back. Perhaps you could read that and give your opinion as he stated it much better than I ever could. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7254 on: August 28, 2020, 08:49:09 AM »
Our FFs wanted to avoid having political parties.  The notion of course was that we'd vote for someone local that we respected who would then "do the right thing", either as elector or Rep.  That lasted until Washington left office, if that long.

I don't think how we select Senators is really an issue, or at least it's not one where changing the process would make any real difference at this point.

Back in the day, the franchise for who could vote was restricted to those who paid taxes, which generally meant those who owned property (it varied by state who could vote).  Poor folks couldn't vote, poor men that is, generally speaking.  As the FFs were NOT poor, this made sense to them.  Folks who had skin in the game would vote, in effect, if you paid for it, you had a voice.

This was of course viewed as "not democratic".  I think Franklin defined democracy as two wolves and a sheep ... you know the rest.

I became convinced that ANY large human enterprise will be badly flawed, inefficient, rife with corruption and greed, etc.  ANY.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7255 on: August 28, 2020, 08:58:19 AM »
No... Respectfully, you missed the point of that discussion.

It's that we are a federal republic, and that each individual state may have desires and incentives that are unique to them as an entity.

One of those desires is that prior to the 17th amendment, to some extent each individual state guarded its autonomy in certain areas. The state legislatures didn't necessarily WANT to cede power to DC. That was true whether it was California or Wyoming or Rhode Island.

Originally the House was to represent the peoples' interests, and the Senate was to represent the states' interests. The 17th Amendment made the Senate just a slightly different version of the House.

The original makeup of the Senate was, IMHO, designed to create one additional brake on power moving from state capitals to DC.
I understood the point. 

Now perhaps the augment is that a certain group of elites, say Toni Atkins and Anthony Rendon can better hold their senators to account than the populace of the state overall. Or perhaps they can at least gum up the federal government better. 

But as you said above, the people and the states apparently have different interests. If the state, in your case California, is not made up of its people but by its state assembly, then that's elitism. And in many cases, elitism is fine, but gotta call a duck a duck.

MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7256 on: August 28, 2020, 08:58:59 AM »
  I think Franklin defined democracy as two wolves and a sheep ... you know the rest.
Refresh my memory
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7257 on: August 28, 2020, 09:01:39 AM »
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep arguing over what's for dinner.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7258 on: August 28, 2020, 09:02:15 AM »
You do realize that his country was not founded as a Democracy? The founders intentionally set up the government as a Republic for a reason. They knew that a Democracy would collapse upon itself when the people found that they could vote to have the government give them money from the treasury. You do also realize that the members of the State Legislature are themselves voted into office by the people? Getting back to the original intent of the founders is not elitism.
The original founders were to a degree elitist, and their very original structure involved several layers of elitism. It's fine to say it.

The argument was if we let the people vote without many layers of betters (elites) it will be madness. That's not truly wrong, but the more layers of betters and to a degree the smaller the franchise, the more elitist. Just the way that word works. 

MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7259 on: August 28, 2020, 09:06:56 AM »
Make what stop, the Republic?

No thanks.
It's just my personal pet peeve, because 99% of the time there is no functional difference between a republic and democracy and people say there is mostly as a justification to prevent people from participating.  Carry on, good sir.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7260 on: August 28, 2020, 09:09:28 AM »
Exactly.  And their lack of respect for life tends to undermine ALL of their faux bluster about inclusion. 
it is never about inclusion.  It’s about getting their fingers on anything they don’t have.  Give them what they ask for, they just want something else.  Classic Marxism.
for the record- I don’t associate this with other forum members, but one.
Now, now, now, not respecting life is a bipartisan issue, just depends the lens. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7261 on: August 28, 2020, 09:12:29 AM »
It's just my personal pet peeve, because 99% of the time there is no functional difference between a republic and democracy and people say there is mostly as a justification to prevent people from participating.  Carry on, good sir.
Either there is a difference between the terms, or there is not.  I don't see how terms can mean the same thing 99% of the time and not mean that 1% of the time.

Words have definitions.  It aids in discussion if we don't distort those definitions and become our own lexicographers, like misusing the term violent.

I probably worked around lawyers too long in my career.

MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7262 on: August 28, 2020, 09:18:48 AM »
Either there is a difference between the terms, or there is not.  I don't see how terms can mean the same thing 99% of the time and not mean that 1% of the time.

Words have definitions.  It aids in discussion if we don't distort those definitions and become our own lexicographers, like misusing the term violent.

I probably worked around lawyers too long in my career.
Of course words have definitions.  That's why it's dumb to claim shooting or locking them in a cage someone is actually nonviolent, and also silly to claim we don't live in a democracy because we live in a republic.  

MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7263 on: August 28, 2020, 09:24:21 AM »
I probably worked around lawyers too long in my career.
I hope you're in counseling  :party0036:
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7264 on: August 28, 2020, 09:27:51 AM »
I hope you're in counseling  :party0036:
Getting that wine in one's eyes seems awfully uncomfortable. 

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7265 on: August 28, 2020, 09:34:59 AM »
Of course words have definitions.  That's why it's dumb to claim shooting or locking them in a cage someone is actually nonviolent, and also silly to claim we don't live in a democracy because we live in a republic. 
What should society do with bad guys who are a danger to society?

Serve them tea and cookies and just ask them to stop?

If you want to call it violent to lock somebody up that robs a bank then so be it

they still need to be locked up
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

 

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