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Topic: Misfits Thread

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7098 on: August 27, 2020, 12:42:52 PM »
Cops should train on dude ranches how to lasso people.  Hogtie them, then they don't need a knee on their throat.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Kris60

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7099 on: August 27, 2020, 12:43:03 PM »
1) We should be, because police misconduct--particularly lethal misconduct--should be addressed.

But, and this is the bigger point:

2) Is there a centuries-long history of discrimination against white people in this country because of nothing other than the color of their skin?
No and no is the answer to both questions but I want to focus on question two.  There seems to be double talk on this point.  It seems like the same people who say we need to get past focusing on skin color can do nothing but focus on skin color the second something bad happens.

What made the George Floyd incident racial other than people wanting it to be? The ATL incident? Kenosha?  As long as whites and blacks continue to live, work, and congregate in the same places there will occasionally be conflict because that just happens between people from time to time.  But whenever it happens the default reaction is “well, that must be racial.”

I mean, are we trying to get past skin color or not? The messages seem mixed.

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7100 on: August 27, 2020, 12:43:33 PM »
are we discussing the big picture of racism in America here, or a specific incident where a black man was shot by two white men?

regardless of history or of this particular black man's life to this point, this black man made multiple bad decisions the day he was shot.

did the two white men make all the right decisions in shooting him multiple times?  I don't think so, but that doesn't excuse the black man's actions.

It's going to come down to, did the two white men act in accordance with their training and their employer's policy.

Does an officer need to "see" a gun or a knife before using his weapon?

Should the officers have done other things to subdue the black man before resorting to pulling their weapons?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7101 on: August 27, 2020, 12:44:13 PM »
Cops should train on dude ranches how to lasso people.  Hogtie them, then they don't need a knee on their throat.
John Wayne wouldn't have had to shot this man, but he might have
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Kris60

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7102 on: August 27, 2020, 12:44:29 PM »
Cops should train on dude ranches how to lasso people.  Hogtie them, then they don't need a knee on their throat.
Lol. I’d love to see your meltdown the first time a cop hogtied a black person.

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7103 on: August 27, 2020, 12:46:40 PM »
You're bypassing the "why" behind him not complying with police.  That's what I've been saying.  Your crowd doesn't care about the 'why'. 
explain why he wouldn't comply with police orders?  and why this reason should be a defense for his actions?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7104 on: August 27, 2020, 12:46:44 PM »
Things I've seen in my life:

White Only water fountains, with Colored next to it, a nasty one.

Black only schools that should have been blown up, no windows, unpainted, probably no heat, nasty places.

The ONLY black people you saw were doing menial jobs.  Zero police.  Zero politicians in elected office.  They did have their own doctors/dentists/ministers, but "we" never saw them.  A black man better be on his side of town when the sun set.

The impression one gets as a child is that blacks are different and inferior, and that was intentional obviously.  They all lived in a part of town with a derogatory name.

My boss in grad school had stories about living in his dorm as an undergrad in Mississippi circa 1965 and having to sleep on the floor because the red necks would drive by and unload rifle fire on the dorm indiscriminately.  The notion of a "Negro" going to college was an anathema.  He went to grad school at Case Western and said the cops at the time in Cleveland were brutal if you were black.

People my age who are black had a tough, uphill climb, far far tougher than anything I had to traverse.  My boss didn't want any favors, and didn't need them.  Even in the late 1970s, some people would say to him "I guess we know why you are here."

At the same time, I've witnessed specific quotas at work for advancing people of color to higher levels, hard numbers, and the VP's compensation depended on it.  That also is discrimination in my book, based on race.

I don't have a fix.  I rue the "war on drugs" a lot.  I think the Portugal experiment merits more discussion.

Kris60

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7105 on: August 27, 2020, 12:47:08 PM »
You're bypassing the "why" behind him not complying with police.  That's what I've been saying.  Your crowd doesn't care about the 'why'. 
So tell us. Why wasn’t he complying?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7106 on: August 27, 2020, 12:48:55 PM »
Lol. I’d love to see your meltdown the first time a cop hogtied a black person.
When have I ever melted down?  I'm not the caricature you've created in your mind.

I assume you're not the mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragger pictured in my head.  Correct?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7107 on: August 27, 2020, 12:49:22 PM »
So tell us. Why wasn’t he complying?
How in the hell should I know?  Neither of us knows, but why am I the only one asking the question?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7108 on: August 27, 2020, 12:49:39 PM »
1.) We have yet to see all of the evidence in this case to make a determination that this was a case of police misconduct. All we really know for sure is that a black man was shot by 2 officers. Everything else is either 2nd hand knowledge or conjecture. Until the facts come out, we really have no idea if this was justified or and unjustified shooting incident.

2.) Without all of the fact of this case, what does this incident have to do with centuries of discrimination against any race? You have made the leap that this is a race issue due to the color of the skin of the cops and the suspect. (I say suspect because is was reported that he had 1 or more warrants out for his arrest).

So my insinuating that this is a race issue minus any substantive proof, are you not projecting a racist opinion on the subject? And this is the reason for my question. Because of the races involved in this shooting, people have jumped directly to the conclusion that this is a race issue. Could it simply be that a person resisted arrest and then posed a threat to officers that then feared for their life? Or maybe they over-reacted, not because he was black but because he had just fought them off and said he was going for a weapon.

But instead of looking simply at the facts that are known, we have people bringing up centuries of racism to explain what is going on. I would prefer that we allow the authorities to investigate, get the details out and then we can sit around and make judgments of people whom we have never met and know very little about.
1) Agreed.

2) What this has to do with racism is the familiarity the black community has with being on the wrong side of police violence, and the systemic problems that put them there. Maybe this was a justified shooting (we're still waiting on that), but it is endemic of a problem that a large part of this country wants to pretend doesn't exist. Racism, and its effects on this society, did not end in 1965, or even when George Wallace agreed that maybe segregation wasn't the right way of handling things.

The solutions to these deeply ingrained problems aren't easy, but they also aren't simply throwing our hands up and pretending they don't exist. Nor are they state legislatures explicitly saying that the reason they are enacting voting "reform" is to deny black people votes (as the appeals court held regarding North Carolina's legislature in this decade, they "target African Americans with almost surgical precision.")

That's what drives Black Lives Matter protests. When people stop responding with "All Lives Matter" without being willing to agree that "All" necessarily includes "Black," there will be fewer protests.

This is just about the criminal justice system, but it's a useful start:
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

As a thought experiment, imagine two farms that share a river as a water source and grow the same crops. The upstream farmer intentionally pollutes the river as it leaves his property because he knows it will flow downstream and damage his neighbor's crops. This allows him to sell his crops at a higher price because his are beautiful, whereas his neighbors are poor. He does this for decades. When the downstream farmer realizes that for decades his fields have been wrecked by the upstream farmer's intentional conduct, he takes that farmer to court. The upstream farmer learns of the lawsuit and stops the intentional pollution. Over the course of those decades the upstream farmer has gotten rich, while the downstream farmer has barely managed to scrape by. The upstream farmer has gotten rich, reinvested in equipment, expanded his farm, and grown a small empire where his product is known as the gold standard, while the downstream farmer has lived season to season barely getting by, had to sell most of his assets, is deeply indebted to the bank, and has a long reputation for poor quality. But the intentional pollution has now stopped, so we're all good, right?

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7109 on: August 27, 2020, 12:51:32 PM »
How in the hell should I know?  Neither of us knows, but why am I the only one asking the question?
give me one logical explanation why this man wouldn't comply with law enforcement orders?

why are you asking why?  That's another good question 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7110 on: August 27, 2020, 12:52:51 PM »
We are in Northpoint Marina now, and several more are joining today. The harbormaster here has been kind, giving us a deal for $1/foot/day rather than the standard $1.25. He is doing this for all Kenosha refugees.

This harbor still sucks though. Nothing changed since we all left it back in 2005. Of course, it is owned by the State of Illinois, so... yeah. It sucks.
isn't there a nice marina on the Michigan side of the lake?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7111 on: August 27, 2020, 12:55:12 PM »

 

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