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Topic: Misfits Thread

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bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6748 on: August 25, 2020, 08:06:25 PM »
Oh hell yes.  It is standard behavior now.

And not just run, actually fight or assault or otherwise physically resist.
Interesting. I find myself of two minds about it.

On the one hand, running from the cops was certianly more profitable historically. You could get away with things much more easily when things weren't so interconnected. We have a major sport whose roots are deeply tied to running from the cops and a popular TV show that has some place in the historical memory was built on the same. Car chases feel like they were part of media history in the 80s and 90s, but that could just be because channels air them less at the behest of law enforcement.

On the other hand, the chance of an extralegal assault was probably higher historically (though it's probably not low now). Even less attention probably gave the law more leeway to push and break the law. 

I'm unsure how standard it is. But it is nature to assume now is always worse than then. 

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6749 on: August 25, 2020, 08:16:03 PM »
Their own.  Kenosha PD does not supply them.

And in a separate question are you still convinced that the paid rioters came from Chicago and Milwaukee and other distant places but did it for free?
I'm usually pretty skeptical of the paid rioters thing. It often strikes me as a fantastical thing a person would think because it make it seem like they're more besieged, which people seem to like.

I look at two reasons for skepticism:
1. There was a weird run of people in all sorts of random places suddenly hearing buses of Antifa were coming their way. And often it was just nonsense. So the idea of these influxes of professional troublemakers just strikes me as one of those things people want badly to believe, and elaborate things people want badly to believe are usually things I should be skeptical of.
2. If we assume the massive influx of experienced protesters or troublemakers, people do lots of stuff for free. That some people want to start trouble isn't super surprising. That some people want to rush over to something for a cause they believe in (and start trouble for some of them), also not surprising. Ergo, I'm unconvinced one would need to pay such people. 

Basically, it sounds like a story of a perfect boogeyman. And I'm skeptical such perfect things exist. People can be destructive jackasses from right inside the community and for free. 

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6750 on: August 25, 2020, 08:28:30 PM »
“If any”.  You are being very kind.
People on this board rooting against the cops in favor of the looters and burners?  I don't see it, HB.
I see that some posters would like to see fewer bad shootings by cops.  I hope everyone would be in favor of that.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6751 on: August 25, 2020, 08:36:33 PM »
Oh hell yes.  It is standard behavior now.

And not just run, actually fight or assault or otherwise physically resist.
Back when he was in college, the starting QB for the Cleveland Browns ran from cops in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and all I ever heard about it at the time was that no significant punishment should be forthcoming, as boys will be boys and, "Say--don't you remember when YOU were in college?"
Personally, I didn't think it was standard behavior.
We could probably read of similar incidents involving NCAA Div I football players every week.  College Football Fan makes excuses for that sort of running away.
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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6752 on: August 25, 2020, 08:38:48 PM »
And was this specific event driven by race? Who knows, but it's easy for me to believe the answer is no. But in the bigger picture, the situation--that black people are on the receiving end of more of these situations than white people, is absolutely a function of race in America. That's what needs to be owned up to so that we can begin to make serious efforts to address it.”


So help me understand this. Are you saying that white people and Black people are in the situations an equal amount of times but Black people are treated differently? Or are you saying that Black people are in these types of situations were this kind of force, excessive or otherwise, happens?

Or, Are you saying that given the equal number of “opportunities” that Black people behave differently in those situations because of their past experiences?
1) There is no question that black people are disproportionately more involved in the criminal justice system in this country than white people. This is irrefutable.

2) It is also irrefutable that black people are treated disproportionately worse than white people by the criminal justice system, from traffic stops, to arrests, to charging, to sentencing. In other words, given the same conduct, black people average worse outcomes.

3) Why?
One reason is poverty. Poverty and crime rates go together like peanut butter and jelly. This is unsurprising: desperate people do desperate things. That doesn't mean all crime is because of poverty, and it doesn't excuse crime where poverty is also present, and it certainly doesn't mean that poor people are necessarily criminals--most poor people aren't criminals. But undoubtedly, the world round, poverty rates and crime rates go hand in hand.

Anyone who acknowledges anything about U.S. history can see that the state intentionally drove black people into poverty. First through slavery, then through Jim Crow and a host of other nefarious, overt acts taken to deprive black people of rights equal to those of white people. Again, this is irrefutable. Literally centuries of state-sponsored action had a very real impact on the black community, and turning that state sponsoring off didn't--because it couldn't--suddenly fix what centuries of official policy created. Nor is there a credible argument that at some point after the Supreme Court decisions of the 50s and 60s and the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act ingrained racism was just turned off and went away.

But it isn't just poverty. In large part its ingrained bias that goes with centuries of intentional oppression that shape our views. This isn't overt racism, it's unconscious bias--but it's important because it reinforces the biases that are there. An example is national media--including the generally somewhat left-leaning media--label black people as looters, and white people as gathering supplies after Hurricane Katrina--black and white people literally doing the same thing. That kind of thing is well documented, and it reinforces the idea that black people are more likely criminal, more likely dangerous, more likely predatory. That kind of bias is a big part of the outcomes issue.

So black people--even those who aren't in poverty--are more likely to be stopped by the police, more likely to have the neighbors call in complaints about them, more likely to receive negative attention while shopping, more likely to be marginalized in the work place, etc., etc., etc. The evidence of this is overwhelming. And that is systemic racism. It's different than member-of-the-Klan racism, but it's very real, and needs real attention for us to reduce or even (should we be so lucky) eliminate it.

And do black kids and white kids get different educations (on the whole) as to how to interact with the police? Absolutely. My black friends have conversations with their kids (and had conversations with their parents) that I would never dream of with my kids. Sure, I tell my kids to be respectful, but I don't worry about any police interaction as a life or death scenario. So yes, it's safe to say that black people (again, this is all on the whole--looking at populations in the millions, not any particular incident) have different interactions with the police.

As an example, my best police friend told me recently that on reflection it's very likely that many of the traffic stops he's made over the years were the result of the people he was tailing being nervous that he was tailing them--and thus less proficient at driving. Like many cops, he didn't pull people over to write tickets, he pulled people over because people driving badly at night often have bad things going on in their lives, and he was trying to catch the bad guys. Now, we're all (or at least most people I know) nervous when we have police officers behind us, but a group of people who learn to fear police interactions as potentially deadly, as opposed to merely uncomfortable, would be a lot more nervous--and thus make more mistakes. That's a vicious cycle, and one born of literally centuries of racism, not my friend, nor the person he's tailing, making a conscious race-based decision.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 08:47:56 PM by SFBadger96 »

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6753 on: August 25, 2020, 08:41:55 PM »
The Atlanta police department is over 60% black.  It would be interesting to look at statistics on black police shooting black men versus white police.  If the ratio is the same, one might conclude race is not a factor in this.
Recently I read (in New York magazine, IIRC) a story of NYPD violence tied to protection provided by the police union.  Actually, NYPD as a better-than-average record as far as bad shootings and other bad violent actions go, but even so the raw numbers are high.
Anyway, I think I remember reading that black cops behave about the same as white cops.  The ones who stay on the force adopt the police culture.  They shoot black suspects about as often as white cops do when circumstances are similar.
I've seen another study--I think I've seen HB alluding to it--that concluded that while cops hassle black people significantly more than they do whites, they aren't more likely to use deadly force against blacks than they do against whites under similar circumstances.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6754 on: August 25, 2020, 08:52:16 PM »
So, in The Bulwark, a center-right Never-Trump online news/opinion site that has tried hard (maybe even too hard) to see the protestors' PoV, Editor Charlie Sykes posts this as something seen on social media:


Quote
This may not be representative of the sentiments of most of the protesters, but in conjunction with the viral pictures of Kenosha burning, it is quickly hardening political reactions along ideological lines.
I first thought that whoever put that out should know that it helps Donald Trump's campaign.
Then I thought that perhaps someone in Donald Trump's campaign is putting that out.  A false-flag operation.
Then I thought that nobody in charge of Donald Trump's campaign would be smart enough to do that.
Whichever is true, it helps Trump's campaign.

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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6755 on: August 25, 2020, 09:00:53 PM »
The black cop question gets to the heart of what systemic racism means. It doesn't mean: person A did a bad thing, so person A is a racist. It means that the system encourages an outcome that is driven by race. In most instances not entirely driven by race, but influenced by it.

So black cops every bit as much as white cops--because cops are the ones we ask to enforce our law (or our "systems," if you will)--are the instrument of systemic racism, not because an individual is racist, but because they system they are enforcing is infected by racism.

Which is what makes this stuff so hard--so complicated. It's not choke holds that are the problem (though they may be a problem), it's a system that reinforces biases. And its a system that by in large has worked really well for many people--likely a large majority of people. So it's difficult to change. Where I get confused is when people don't want to acknowledge that a call for change isn't an indictment of the country. I love this country, but loving it doesn't mean I ignore its faults. "In order to form a more perfect union" accepts the obvious, we're not perfect, and calls for us to try to do better. That means recognizing where our systems are failing, and trying to correct them.

Going back to my diatribe above, either there has been a systemic problem in the way this country treats black people, or black people are inherently inferior (ps essentially the definition of racism). I do not believe the latter, so to my mind it is crystal clear the former. We have made significant and important progress, but let's not kid ourselves, that progress has been fought--sometimes literally--every step of the way by significant portions of our population. See Lee Atwater and the Southern Strategy. From where I sit, I see that we have a lot of work still to do, and--as I noted earlier--the first step is admitting we have a problem. 

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6756 on: August 25, 2020, 09:04:19 PM »
So, in The Bulwark, a center-right Never-Trump online news/opinion site that has tried hard (maybe even too hard) to see the protestors' PoV, Editor Charlie Sykes posts this as something seen on social media:


I first thought that whoever put that out should know that it helps Donald Trump's campaign.
Then I thought that perhaps someone in Donald Trump's campaign is putting that out.  A false-flag operation.
Then I thought that nobody in charge of Donald Trump's campaign would be smart enough to do that.
Whichever is true, it helps Trump's campaign.


The worst people that join in a cause don't define the cause. This is a fringe element, just as there are fringe elements who claim allegiance with every movement.

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6757 on: August 25, 2020, 09:05:00 PM »
Madison is the city where the badgers play?

just a little liberal?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6758 on: August 25, 2020, 09:07:28 PM »
One other comment while I'm at it: running from the police is as American as apple pie. Half our pop culture heroes are criminals (not really half, but a lot). Billy the Kid, Bonnie and Clyde, Bo and Luke Duke, Smokey and the Bandit--these were all from years past. American culture has always loved a rebel.

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6759 on: August 25, 2020, 09:08:24 PM »
The worst people that join in a cause don't define the cause. This is a fringe element, just as there are fringe elements who claim allegiance with every movement.
people that burn police stations and car lots are certainly part of the definition
not all of it, but they have a part of it

it's not helping the original cause, but no one is stopping them from being a part of it
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6760 on: August 25, 2020, 09:09:14 PM »
I think it's quite likely a false-flag operation.  Not by anyone in the official Trump campaign, but by someone on the edges of it.  It just plays into what the RNC message is right now too perfectly.
When things are too "good" to be true, they usually aren't true.
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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6761 on: August 25, 2020, 09:09:21 PM »
Madison is the city where the badgers play?

just a little liberal?
There's gambling in Casablanca?

 

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