header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Misfits Thread

 (Read 403547 times)

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25215
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5138 on: July 21, 2020, 01:26:06 PM »
and yet it's allowed to continue
Of course. They make all the laws.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37524
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5139 on: July 21, 2020, 01:37:05 PM »
I might put on a mask and lead a peaceful protest on this issue
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12188
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5140 on: July 21, 2020, 01:41:16 PM »
Sorry, but if the cost of living is very high in an area, the major way you are going to get people to work there is if you offer a higher wage unless there is some other factor that would make people work there. So the question would be why is the cost of living so high in California and one of the reasons I pointed out was they extreme Taxes, fees, levies, etc put on building a house by the local and state governments in California. And if you don't think that is a large factor in the high cost of living in California I don't know what to tell you.

My undergraduate degree is in Economics, so I am not stupid about it. I will grant I used a simplification of "1 Factor" in the reason for higher salaries in California, but I assumed you didn't want to read a 20 page dissertation on why salaries in general are high in California and would accept they fact the the cost of housing is a factor in it.

If you want (nevermind I don't want) we could get into a whole discussion of causation vs Correlation 
Land is expensive in parts of CA for obvious reasons.  I'm sure an acre lot in SF would be pricey because of that demand thing.

SF also has a lot of codes preventing a developed from tearing down four story buildings and putting up a 60 story condo tower.

As you move further out into the hinterlands, land gets cheaper, obviously, I suspect that is true in general.
The point I was trying to make, and the point I think @bayareabadger is that the cost of living in California did not become high due to government, but that government is certainly a factor. 

The cost of living is high in California because a bunch of people want to live here. And the cost is particularly high in places where "new construction" isn't a driver of cost, it's *much* more due to simple supply and demand of a market overwhelmingly dominated by existing housing stock rather than new builds.

Most of the Bay Area is like this. The good jobs are mostly on the peninsula. People don't want to have to fight traffic from Morgan Hill or Livermore to get to their cushy job in Palo Alto, so housing is ridiculously expensive there. It's not new builds; it's existing. 

Where I live (Mission Viejo, Orange County), most of the housing was built in the 70's. The house I rent is a 1200 sf 3bdr/2ba house desperately in need of a nearly total remodel to be anything approaching modern and desirable, and it would likely sell for over $600K. I could hop over to Lake Elsinore and get a 4 bdr >2500 sf relatively new house for under $500K. But I don't want to because Lake Elsinore is hot af, and sucks, and there's no way my wife would battle traffic to get to her job in Newport Beach every day. 

There are things that government does to cause housing problems, as Cincy points out... One of the key is restricting high-density housing and restricting where things can be built. That reduces possible housing stock and drives up demand relative to supply. Although what you'll find is that the people who live in those areas--NOT the government--are the ones pushing so hard against high-density housing. Because they don't want poor(er) people to move into their community. It's NIMBY attitudes that restrict housing supply more than government decree. 

Another thing is general taxation and other things affecting cost of living. In CA, for example, property taxes are relatively low as a percentage, but given the cost of housing they can still be high in absolute terms. CA sales tax is high. CA income tax is high. CA environmental regulations (and state gas excise taxes) ensure that gasoline is more expensive here than almost anywhere else in the US. But if this is the case, we're talking about maybe a few percent addition to cost of living, MUCH lower than housing.

But I think the permit fees / etc that you bring up are probably a lower portion of the reason that housing is so expensive, because the places where those exist are the places where housing is ALREADY expensive and usually where the bulk of the housing stock is existing and not new construction.

Housing is expensive here because people want to live here. Government makes it worse, because they can get away with it, because people want to live here

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71547
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5141 on: July 21, 2020, 01:47:18 PM »
Yeah, I am agreeing with that.  Regulations and what not can make construction more expensive, but in elite areas, it's the land that is most of the cost, because it's in short supply in desirable areas and they don't usually make more of it.    High demand makes land pricier.

The cost of building a house near LA might be 20% higher than here, but the price of a half acre of land would be much higher.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12188
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5142 on: July 21, 2020, 01:54:12 PM »
Yeah, I am agreeing with that.  Regulations and what not can make construction more expensive, but in elite areas, it's the land that is most of the cost, because it's in short supply in desirable areas and they don't usually make more of it.    High demand makes land pricier.

The cost of building a house near LA might be 20% higher than here, but the price of a half acre of land would be much higher.
Yeah, but even more than that what I'm saying is that you can't even buy 1/2 acre unimproved lot in Los Angeles. Everything is already built up. 

So you have to buy land, tear down whatever is on it, and start anew. And if you can afford to do that, well the government will make sure they get a cut!

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71547
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5143 on: July 21, 2020, 02:11:17 PM »
Yup.  There is about a quarter acre "lot" near us, it's an old filling station that is now a bike rental place, and a small derelict building next to it.  Both are for sale, but there is a height restriction of four stories.  Some group applied for a variance to build condos to 7 stories.  It was denied.  The lot is so small that any condo building of 4 stories would not be large enough, especially if you have on premise parking.  They have to excavate granite to put that underground.

The new projects here are mostly going in where surface parking lots existed, some tear down 80 year old houses.  The four story limit doesn't apply once you get 400 feet off the park.

When I was last in LA, there was a lot of residential construction out in Riverside (where I had to go a few times), 60 miles or so east.  Land then no doubt was cheaper and more available.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37524
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5144 on: July 21, 2020, 02:13:46 PM »
plenty of cheap land with very good water supply in North Dakota
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17150
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5145 on: July 21, 2020, 02:15:26 PM »


Thought Badge was working on a Great Lake for Iowa - what Happened?
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25215
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5146 on: July 21, 2020, 02:22:55 PM »

Thought Badge was working on a Great Lake for Iowa - what Happened?
The permitting and regulatory process is killing me.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25215
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5147 on: July 21, 2020, 02:24:33 PM »
Back when I first started in business, I did a lot of work on Chicago's North Shore. Glencoe, Winnetka, Kenilworth.

A client told me that a demo permit alone (no vacant land left) cost him about $50K. That's in Y2K. I have no idea how much they charge today.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37524
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5148 on: July 21, 2020, 02:28:33 PM »
$50K

that's more than my house cost back in 89
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5149 on: July 21, 2020, 02:30:24 PM »
Yeah, but even more than that what I'm saying is that you can't even buy 1/2 acre unimproved lot in Los Angeles. Everything is already built up.

So you have to buy land, tear down whatever is on it, and start anew. And if you can afford to do that, well the government will make sure they get a cut!
This is the problem in South Florida as well. Lady from up north bought a complete piece of shit built in the 70's originally for $1.2 million cash, and is spending $600k with us to completely gut it and renovate it and raise the ceiling, and she spent another $100k on the pool before she even met us, and she probably spent another $50-60k on a door package.

Once that house is all done though, she'd be able to sell it easy for around $3 million.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71547
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5150 on: July 21, 2020, 03:00:09 PM »
In NW Atlanta, a lot of 1950s houses are being bought up for over a million, and torn down, to build mansions.  I'm sure this happens everywhere.  That area was built up with large lots, 2-3-4 acres, back 1955ish.  The houses were very nice, for that era, often sprawling ranches.  The property now is where the value is.

Some of the new houses there are really eye popping, it's hard to believe that many people have this kind of money.

And of course here the cost of the house itself is relatively inexpensive.

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25215
  • Liked:
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.