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Topic: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6314 on: August 11, 2020, 10:28:54 AM »
Part 2

So the situation was not all that great for black people in the South.  That, along with the declining profit margin in farming, meant a lot of black people started moving north.  This created a lot of conflict for northern whites - it was a lot easier to support black people when they were a thousand miles away.  What to do?

The Federal Housing Authority helped provide an answer.  Created in response to the Great Depression, it helped protect lenders and spur home ownership.  It was quite successful at this, but they had the policy of not inuring mortgages in communities with large black populations (redlining).  Combined with various other policies (the GI Bill, Federal Highway Act), the era of suburbs began.  White neighborhoods typically had a restrictive covenant or home owners association that prevented black people from moving into them.  This helped create the black people in urban environments/white people in suburbs type of segregation that persists to this day. 
Time is getting compressed somewhat here.
White Southern economic and social practices continued to impoverish most people--black and white alike--of the region, just as they had before the abolition of slavery.
Blacks moving out of the South into northern, midwestern, and even western cities is what historians call the Great Migration.  (The same name is given to the wave of Puritans coming to New England in the 1630s.)  It started during World War I as industry ramped up to supply the Allies even before we were in the war (which began in April 1917).
In the destination cities, not only was there tension between rural blacks and urban whites, but also between rural blacks and urban blacks.  Racial tension and cultural tension.
The FHA (Federal Housing Administration) came along as part of FDR's New Deal in 1934.  And it had racist policies as described.  It turned integrated neighborhoods into segregated ones.  FDR was a Democrat.  This is another part of the Democratic Party's history that I wish current Democrats would acknowledge.
During World War II, the FDR administration enacted the GI Bill of Rights.  And it had racist impacts as described.  Again, FDR was a Democrat.
Jonah Goldberg has made a good point about who gets blamed for America's sins.  Because those who set the standards of historical/intellectual assessment of America are overwhelmingly liberal Democrats, it works like this.  When liberals and/or Democrats have pursued racialist policies, that's America's fault.  When conservatives and/or Republicans have pursued such policies, that's their fault.  Liberal Democrats are never at fault.  Of if they are, it's only in falling short, as in failing to appropriate enough money to create the Eden that they have promised.  But they always try to do the right thing.  Of course they do.  Just ask 95% of college history professors.
None of this excuses the racism/white nationalism of the alt-right, or the Republican in the White House who appeals to the alt-right and will not issue a word of criticism of that movement.  Or of the Republicans in Congress who lick his boots.
But, historically, up to 1964, Republicans had a far better record on civil rights and racial equality than Democrats did.  The Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960--the first such since Reconstruction--were products of the Eisenhower (R) administration, watered down by Senate Democrats, who were led by Lyndon B. Johnson.  Even the Civil Rights Act of 1964 had greater Republican support than Democratic.
Unfortunately, the GOP has pretty much dropped the ball on racial issues since 1964.  Even when GOP economic policies produced rising living standards among black Americans, Republicans have failed to do much outreach to blacks or make blacks feel welcome in the party.  And now preserving the names of Confederate "heroes" in the names of military bases seems to be the hill that the POTUS and his lackeys in Congress are willing to die on.
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DevilFroggy

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6315 on: August 11, 2020, 10:34:52 AM »
The freedoms in this country allow for people to make stupid decisions. Sometimes those decisions lead to people breaking laws, getting caught and ending up incarcerated.

Again, please show me where there is unequal enforcement of the laws or what laws exist that are unnecessarily incarcerating people? You are arguing that we have too many people being locked up, but are not demonstrating where they have been wrongly imprisoned.

Yes, I'm sure there have been and still are people in prison that were wrongly convicted and I support any attempt to reverse that when appropriate. But what specific laws or policies have led to this which you feel need to be changed? Simply being outraged by a number does nothing but demonstrate your emotional attachment to the issue.


I never even mentioned in my post unequal enforcement of the law, because that's only part of the reason for our disgustingly disturbingly high incarceration rate. A good chunk of the problem lies with the laws themselves and how easily they can be selectively enforced or ignored.

If some 19 year old stoner gets caught with a couple pounds of marijuana in his car, does he really deserve to spend the next 25+ years of his life in prison? Are we as a society "better off" or "safer" because some kid who tried his hand at peddling dope got busted and is now locked in a cage? And when this 19 year old finally gets released from prison when he finally turns 44 do you think he'll be a better person or be "reformed" from his sentence?

That's just a tiny example of the kind of BS that can get someone incarcerated for most of their life. Our prisons are full of non-violent and far from dangerous individuals who committed victimless crimes. And it's we the taxpayers paying for it too, btw.
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bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6316 on: August 11, 2020, 10:39:02 AM »
I agree, there was rampant racism in the South, and the country in general, in the 1800's. What does that have to do with today? The people rioting in the streets were not alive in 1877. Hell, most of them were not even born before 1977. There have been many laws changed, repealed and written to reverse many, if not all of those policies that you allude to. There has also been a concerted effort for the past 60 years to prop up the African American community starting with the Civil Rights laws up through affirmative action.

The fact of the matter is that there is plenty of opportunity in this country. All it takes is the willingness to pull yourself up through hard work. The Brookings Institute did a study and found that by following 3 simple rules, people can assure themselves they will not live in poverty. Graduate High School, get a full time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children. That is NOT that hard to do and it is NOT exclusive to white people.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

It has two things to do with today:

  • Racism didn't go away. It's still with us, but much quieter.
  • Even if it had gone away, you have a class of people who have been oppressed for long enough that they're finally allowed to run in the race, but they are forced to wait until it's 1/4 run before they get a chance to start, and then everyone asks why they're still behind at the end.

I'm one of those in this country who can accurately claim that my ancestors didn't own slaves, because they were Eastern European immigrants to Chicago in the late 1800's. Being in the North, they weren't part of the Jim Crow South and segregation. I probably can't claim that none of them were racist... Being on the South Side of Chicago in the Polish neighborhoods in close proximity to the black neighborhoods... It wouldn't surprise me much if they were. 

But I am not going to claim that being named Brad and the descendents of those Eastern European immigrants that lived north of 63rd street rather than being named Tyrone and born African-American south of 63rd street hasn't given me an advantage in American life. It doesn't solely explain why I am where I am--my dad was the first in his family to go to college, he and my mom moved out to the suburbs where the schools were excellent and I was surrounded by people and culture who valued education. And I was born with a big ol' nerdy brain at pretty much just the right time in history to be a computer geek. I've worked hard and tried to make good choices. 

But I still started the race a 1/4 of the way ahead of Tyrone. Which means that he would have to be THAT much better just to catch up. 

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6317 on: August 11, 2020, 10:47:52 AM »
Part 3

So federal policy helped a create a difficult situation for black Americans, as they were locked out of The American Dream.  As crime rose in minority communities, our American leaders put on their thinking caps and decided the best way to help black people was by locking them in cages.  Protests were becoming popular, and the government had to figure out a way to stop them.  To quote top Nixon advisor John Ehrlichman:

“The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying. We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

The efforts to incarcerate black people were highly effective.  For example, in Texas, the state incarceration quadrupled rate quadrupled between 1978 and 2003.  At it's peak more people were incarcerated than the Soviets did during the Gulag.  And of course, black people were the biggest victims - around 40 percent of the total prison population at any given time is black people, compared to black people being about 12 percent of the population.  These actions, combined with the disenfranchisement of felons and the other traditional ways we discriminate against felons, have helped reduce black people's political and economic power.
All true.
And, yet, the Nixon administration enforced far more real school integration in the South than all the previous presidents since the Brown v. Board decision combined.  By the end of his presidency, the South's schools as a whole were much more integrated than northern ones.  Nixon was a strange mix of contradictions.
Differential incarceration is why there's a racial angle to the issue of voting rights for convicted felons even when there's no conscious racial angle in why people think the way they do about it.
Do you, Sam, have thoughts about why there's a higher rate of criminal conviction for black defendants?  Is it because they're black, or because they're likely to be poor and therefore unable to afford good attorneys?  Or both?
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6318 on: August 11, 2020, 10:48:42 AM »
So Billy Bob's kids in the single-wide trailor that is completely covered in dents has a quarter mile head start over Malia Obama and LeBron James Junior? 

Riiiight. 
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longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6319 on: August 11, 2020, 10:51:12 AM »
No justification for looting and burning exists

I wasnt around 150 years ago and neither was todays Black population 

This you owe me mentality has to stop

I know many Black people that are successes in life and they didnt burn down a store to get there

Its amazing to me to see pro basketball players who this country allowed to become millionairs kneel during the national anthem. Its like they are saying nevermind paying me millions just to play a game we need more

as long as they kneel during the national anthem I wont be watching 




They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6320 on: August 11, 2020, 11:14:50 AM »
Correct. And we can teach and learn that at home, rather than from someone who wants to rewrite it.
It's always being rewritten Badge.  Has been since Herodotus invented it.
It's never a finished product.
Imagine being an engineer in the 19th century.  New inventions, new materials, new techniques.  The "known" would be constantly changing.
History is always being rewritten.  There's always something to look at in a different way.
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bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6321 on: August 11, 2020, 11:19:39 AM »
So Billy Bob's kids in the single-wide trailor that is completely covered in dents has a quarter mile head start over Malia Obama and LeBron James Junior?

Riiiight.
Of course not. That's a completely asinine argument. There's a lot MORE than race involved. But that doesn't mean race isn't involved.

Billy Bob's kids will still get more of the benefit of the doubt than Tyrone will if they try to better themselves. 

DevilFroggy

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6322 on: August 11, 2020, 11:24:21 AM »
So Billy Bob's kids in the single-wide trailor that is completely covered in dents has a quarter mile head start over Malia Obama and LeBron James Junior?

Riiiight.

I like how you try to use two of the most wealthy AA people you can think of to somehow prove your point.

Poor people are typically disadvantaged from the uber elite rich. This isn't exactly breaking news and yes,s a wide wealth chasm would often supercede differences in race. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but it also proves absolutely nothing.

Seriously, you pretty much just said "since wealthy black people exist and poor white people exist, institutional racism therefore doesn't exist". Think about that, and if you still feel proud of the words you actually took time and effort to punch out on a keyboard and knowingly share with other adult humans then I'm not sure much can be done for you. Shame, really.
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6323 on: August 11, 2020, 11:27:42 AM »
What is institutional racism?

bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6324 on: August 11, 2020, 11:29:10 AM »
This you owe me mentality has to stop
There's an aspect to it that might be a "you owe me" mentality, and I disagree with that.

But a lot of the issue is that we continue to treat people differently based on race.

The entire impetus for this round of protests was a guy who allegedly passed a counterfeit $20, was cuffed, was compliant, and a police officer knelt on his neck for 8:46 until he was dead. He wasn't resisting, he wasn't a threat to the officers, his alleged crime was minimal, but Chauvin flat out killed him. 

To the black community, this wasn't some isolated incident. This was an acute outbreak of an ongoing raging disease that isn't being treated. 

That's why this is still going on. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6325 on: August 11, 2020, 11:30:19 AM »
Of course not. That's a completely asinine argument. There's a lot MORE than race involved. But that doesn't mean race isn't involved.

Billy Bob's kids will still get more of the benefit of the doubt than Tyrone will if they try to better themselves.

That's just ridiculous. A lot of poor Whites are descended from indentured servants, and their family has been poor ever since they earned their freedom. 

They have never, ever been part of any ruling class, buried on the bottom rung of society, and catch the bulk of the blame for "oppression." It is absolutely absurd. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6326 on: August 11, 2020, 11:31:41 AM »
I like how you try to use two of the most wealthy AA people you can think of to somehow prove your point.

Poor people are typically disadvantaged from the uber elite rich. This isn't exactly breaking news and yes,s a wide wealth chasm would often supercede differences in race. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but it also proves absolutely nothing.

Seriously, you pretty much just said "since wealthy black people exist and poor white people exist, institutional racism therefore doesn't exist". Think about that, and if you still feel proud of the words you actually took time and effort to punch out on a keyboard and knowingly share with other adult humans then I'm not sure much can be done for you. Shame, really.
Yes, and I also used the most extreme example for poor whites. I did this in order to illustrate that it is a class issue, and not a race issue. Thank you for noticing.

I also never once claimed that institutional racism doesn't exist. It does, but not in the way that we are told that it does. It is in the form of Affirmative action. Hence the reason that that's the only example that any of you could come up with of a United States law that behooves one group of people over another, based solely on skin color. 

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WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6327 on: August 11, 2020, 11:31:52 AM »
how often are black folks killed by police wrongly?  are the the police punished for it?

he did resist...

 

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