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Topic: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness

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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6300 on: August 11, 2020, 08:56:32 AM »
For example, in Texas, the state incarceration quadrupled rate quadrupled between 1978 and 2003.  At it's peak more people were incarcerated than the Soviets did during the Gulag.  
That's bullshit It's believed Stalin's butcher bill surpassed that of Hitler's.No one knows the true numbers and it's not like the NVKD/KGB was going to provide an accurate account of it either
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6301 on: August 11, 2020, 09:35:09 AM »
That's bullshit It's believed Stalin's butcher bill surpassed that of Hitler's.No one knows the true numbers and it's not like the NVKD/KGB was going to provide an accurate account of it either
Well people study it regardless. Estimates have around .8% of the population in gulags and 1% in American jails and prisons.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6302 on: August 11, 2020, 09:50:19 AM »
Well people study it regardless. Estimates have around .8% of the population in gulags and 1% in American jails and prisons.
And what does that prove? All is says to me is that more people are breaking the law. As long as those laws are equally enforced, what is the problem? 

If you have evidence that the laws are not equally enforced, please show it. But simply throwing meaningless statistics out does not prove anything. 

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6303 on: August 11, 2020, 09:55:26 AM »
it's undeniable that many blacks have been oppressed in this country

the question is, has this oppression been bad enough for justifiable cause to riot, loot, burn buildings, and other crimes?

are these oppressed people trying to change their world for the better, or are they selfish criminals merely taking advantage of a situation as a reason to commit crimes 
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utee94

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6304 on: August 11, 2020, 09:56:02 AM »

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6305 on: August 11, 2020, 09:58:56 AM »
Yeah, see, it doesn't have to be an official federal policy for racism and oppression to happen.
The US gov't isn't deciding on your home loan or working the leasing office.
The US gov't isn't hiring and then rejecting a higher % of resumes based on certain last names.
The US gov't isn't arresting you for drug use more often than another race who uses them just as much.


Stop pretending you're being honest here.  It's gross.

So you were unable to come up with so much as a singular example? 
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6306 on: August 11, 2020, 09:59:08 AM »
A Brief History of Federal Law and Race, Because You Asked For It (Part 1)

Let's hop in the way way back machine for a second.  All the way back to the aftermath of the Civil War.  Black people were riding high, as slavery has been mostly outlawed.  Of course, the southern whites weren't particularly pleased, and in response the Ku Klux Klan was formed, mostly as a terrorist group that intimidated and killed black people trying to lead.  In response, Ulysses Grant and a Republican Congress ramped up the Reconstruction and the federal government broke the Klan and most other attempts to intimidate black people.  This lasted 12 glorious years, and black people were elected to various posts.

Reconstruction ended in 1877 as a truce between Republicans and Democrats and an agreement for Rutherford B. Hayes (Go Bucks) to be president.  Union troops withdrew, and everyone agreed that everything was just peachy.  This allowed southern Democrats to start the Jim Crow era.  States enacted all sorts of crazy schemes to keep black people from voting.  Poll taxes were popular (with a grandfather exception for white people, of course).  The 13th Amendment had an exception for prison labor, so coming up with fun ways to get black people sent to prison was a twofer.  By enacting laws that kept certain felons from voting, and enacting laws that made it easy to declare someone a felon, you could both keep a black guy from voting and return him to slavery.  These efforts were very effective - despite having a huge black population, the last black congressmen left office in 1901 and another was not elected for 72 years.
I like this.
I'll offer clarifications where I think it's appropriate.
The Ku Klux Klan and its ilk constituted the paramilitary squadron of the southern wing of the Democratic Party.  Their goal was explicitly to return Democrat rule (meaning white supremacy) to the South.  Just in the name of honesty and transparency, it would be nice if today's Democrats would own this part of their history.
Jim Crow, surprisingly enough, was not imposed in the immediate aftermath of Reconstruction, but 10-15 year later (it didn't all happen at once, it was state by state, and not exactly the same in every southern state, but was complete by the early 1890s), during the Populist Era.  Nationally, populists made an appeal for poor whites and poor blacks to unite on the basis of similar economic interests. This was a threat to southern Democrats, so segregation in all public facilities was imposed to keep poor whites feeling superior to poor blacks and angry about any attempt by blacks to better themselves. The great southern populists like Tom Watson of Georgia ended up as little more than race-baiting demagogues.  Initially, businesses like railroads opposed Jim Crow, as it made their business more expensive and less efficient.
Of course, in 1896 SCOTUS ruled in Plessy v. Ferguson that segregation was constitutional.
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DevilFroggy

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6307 on: August 11, 2020, 10:04:01 AM »
And what does that prove? All is says to me is that more people are breaking the law. As long as those laws are equally enforced, what is the problem?

If you have evidence that the laws are not equally enforced, please show it. But simply throwing meaningless statistics out does not prove anything.


So the fact the US has, by a considerable margin, one of the highest incarceration rates in the world (especially compared with other first world/developed nations) doesn't bother you at all? Not even a teeny tiny bit? All you think is how every single one of those people is a horrible law breaker and they deserve every bit of their prison sentence? Because that's absolutely horrifying if true.

Hopefully one day you ask yourself why we have so many "criminals and law breakers" vs every other developed nation and see where the problem actually lies.
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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6308 on: August 11, 2020, 10:12:52 AM »

So the fact the US has, by a considerable margin, one of the highest incarceration rates in the world (especially compared with other first world/developed nations) doesn't bother you at all? Not even a teeny tiny bit? All you think is how every single one of those people is a horrible law breaker and they deserve every bit of their prison sentence? Because that's absolutely horrifying if true.

Hopefully one day you ask yourself why we have so many "criminals and law breakers" vs every other developed nation and see where the problem actually lies.
The freedoms in this country allow for people to make stupid decisions. Sometimes those decisions lead to people breaking laws, getting caught and ending up incarcerated. 

Again, please show me where there is unequal enforcement of the laws or what laws exist that are unnecessarily incarcerating people? You are arguing that we have too many people being locked up, but are not demonstrating where they have been wrongly imprisoned.

Yes, I'm sure there have been and still are people in prison that were wrongly convicted and I support any attempt to reverse that when appropriate. But what specific laws or policies have led to this which you feel need to be changed? Simply being outraged by a number does nothing but demonstrate your emotional attachment to the issue.

Kris60

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6309 on: August 11, 2020, 10:13:10 AM »
Sam, everything that you posted has validity to it. There is no doubt that over the course of our country’s history blacks have had it tougher than whites.

But I have to admit that sometimes I wonder how much more can be done from a policy standpoint to even the playing field.  


NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6310 on: August 11, 2020, 10:18:30 AM »
Sam, everything that you posted has validity to it. There is no doubt that over the course of our country’s history blacks have had it tougher than whites.

But I have to admit that sometimes I wonder how much more can be done from a policy standpoint to even the playing field. 


They tried to level the playing field starting in the 1960's. All it did was institutionalize the problem by making blacks dependent upon the government and expanding the problem. The solution is to treat all people the same, regardless of race or income levels. Hold people responsible for their decisions and take away the safety nets to removed accountability for bad decisions so that people have to think twice about making poor decisions. 

The government needs to get back to its purpose as stated by the founders and stay out of the business of charity. The only purpose of the government is to protect the rights of ALL of it's citizens. It is NOT to ensure that everyone has a fair and equitable outcome.  

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6311 on: August 11, 2020, 10:21:41 AM »
Gotta know your history
Correct. And we can teach and learn that at home, rather than from someone who wants to rewrite it.
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847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6312 on: August 11, 2020, 10:23:45 AM »
I don't want government involved in the solution. The solution has to come from the communities, and those who invest in same.

Government has had its chance, for far too long.
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bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6313 on: August 11, 2020, 10:26:07 AM »
And what does that prove? All is says to me is that more people are breaking the law. As long as those laws are equally enforced, what is the problem?

If you have evidence that the laws are not equally enforced, please show it. But simply throwing meaningless statistics out does not prove anything.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/

Quote
The overwhelming increase in incarceration, attributed to the drug war, has disproportionately impacted Black communities. In 2011, Blacks were incarcerated at a dramatically higher rate than Whites (5–7 times) and accounted for almost half of all prisoners incarcerated with a sentence of more than one year for a drug-related offense (Carson and Sabol 2012). Accordingly, researchers and policy analysts have sought to understand both the causes and effects of the nation’s war on drugs and its implications for racial equality (Ghandoosh 2015; Travis, Western, & Redburn 2014; Alexander, 2012; Drucker 2013; Mauer 2006). They have explored racial bias in the criminal justice system and criminal justice outcomes, including police practices, arrest rates, convictions, sentence lengths, diversionary opportunities, and community supervision; judicial policies and laws such as precedent-setting court cases and mandatory minimum sentences; and media trends and their influence on public opinion. This literature demonstrates greater likelihood of Black involvement in the criminal justice system through policing practices and sentencing policies for drug-related crime, differences in sentencing practices and case processing, and the heightened disadvantage Blacks face once they are removed from their communities, and upon return, as labeled felons and drug offenders.

While a decades-long war on drugs has ravaged Black communities, lately attention has turned to the recent surge in heroin and painkiller use and overdose among Whites, particularly those in suburbs. Local police and state governments are alarmed and are working to address the epidemic as a health issue, reexamining criminal justice policies and the decades-long emphasis on punishment (Seelye 2016). Many are advocating for the return of the rehabilitative role in judicial and correctional efforts as it relates to drug-related offenders (National Institute on Drug Abuse 2014). The Comprehensive and Addiction Recovery Act of 2015 will be considered by Congress to help states address the dramatic increases in prescription opioid and heroin use in the United States through prevention and rehabilitation efforts. The response to the current opioid epidemic, a public health crisis with a “white face,” has been contrasted to the crack epidemic that hit Black communities hard in the 90s and was met with war tactics in affected communities rather than compassion for offenders (Yankah 2016).

The laws are not equally enforced. By a mile.

Drug use is a crime if you're black. It's a health issue if you're white.

 

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