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Topic: 2019 NFL Draft

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Mdot21

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #168 on: March 28, 2019, 02:10:24 PM »
Amen. I would do the same. Good RB's look great if they've got enormous holes to run through. Good QB's look great if they've got tons of time to read the defense before they throw. Good LB's look great in run support if you've got a bunch of DL who can shed blocks and disrupt plays in the backfield. Good DB's look great if you have a DL that can get pressure on the QB rushing 4 and not needing to blitz much.
Get the OL and the DL sorted, first, with the best players you can get. Big uglies make everyone else look prettier.
Truly elite, great players are great no matter who else is around them. IF you've got a chance to take a guy you think is that good- you take him. Always go best player available. That's why I don't think the Giants screwed up by taking Saquon over Darnold. Saquon is a potential HOF player. Darnold sucks to me.
OL's bust out all the time. The Packers f***ked up royally by taking Tony Mandarich with the 2nd pick when the next 3 picks were....Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. Barry never really had a great line and still dominated. Deion could cover anyone one on one in his sleep. Derrick Thomas was a HOF LB'er with not much else around him for many years in KC.

MrNubbz

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2019, 03:13:17 PM »
 The Packers f***ked up royally by taking Tony Mandarich with the 2nd pick when the next 3 picks were....Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. Barry never really had a great line and still dominated. Deion could cover anyone one on one in his sleep. Derrick Thomas was a HOF LB'er with not much else around him for many years in KC.
When I think of the 1st rounders the Browns have pissed away :88:.......it's just nauseating.At least the Packers got to the NFL Championship Game 3 times since.The Browns..... :banghead:
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2019, 03:39:01 PM »
OL's bust out all the time. The Packers f***ked up royally by taking Tony Mandarich with the 2nd pick when the next 3 picks were....Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. Barry never really had a great line and still dominated. Deion could cover anyone one on one in his sleep. Derrick Thomas was a HOF LB'er with not much else around him for many years in KC.
The Chiefs made the wild card five times during Derrick Thomas' career and won their division twice. They had one conference championship appearance in all of those years.
The Lions had 5 wild card game losses in Sanders' span, and one divisional title (lost in conference championship game). 
Deion only played in Atlanta from 1989-1993 (the only time that his draft history matters IMHO), and in that time the Falcons had one wild card appearance (win) but lost in the next round. 
Mandarich was a head case, and was cut after 3 seasons in Green Bay. And those were bad teams as well, so I can't say that they were otherwise a well-run team (that was the era of Lindy Infante, and Holmgren replaced him in 1992 when Mandarich was cut). He was certainly a draft bust, that's sure. But it's not like the draft strategy of the Chiefs, Lions, or Falcons proves that taking those great players is the key to success.
The strategy isn't necessarily "how to draft", but "how to build a successful team". I may be wrong that OL/DL are the first priority to create a successful team, but your examples of Sanders/Thomas/Deion certainly didn't prove me wrong.

ELA

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2019, 04:48:22 PM »
Ed Oliver ran the same shuttle time as DeSean Jackson

Riffraft

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #172 on: March 28, 2019, 05:09:33 PM »
Schiano stepped down as Pats Defense Coordinator to concentrate on "his faith and family" Seems obvious that something is coming out 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2019, 06:42:45 PM »
Ed Oliver ran the same shuttle time as DeSean Jackson
Yeah but would you draft him?  The 2nd half of the season, all I saw was injuries and him bitching at coaches....
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FearlessF

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2019, 07:02:38 PM »
not in the first round, but I'd take a chance on Ed if the interview went well
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #175 on: March 29, 2019, 01:39:03 PM »
That Draft Day movie had been mentioned, and while it was silly to make a movie like that, I do like the idea of asking/finding out none of THE guy's teammates went to his birthday party.  I'd be asking obscure questions like that left and right.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #176 on: March 29, 2019, 03:13:50 PM »
When I think of the 1st rounders the Browns have pissed away :88:.......it's just nauseating.At least the Packers got to the NFL Championship Game 3 times since.The Browns..... :banghead:
yeah but the Packers going to 3 Super Bowls had a lot to do with the QB and a defensive f/a signing. Both SB runs.
Packers traded a 1st round pick to Atlanta for Brett Favre and signed Reggie White in f/a a couple years later. Pack drafted Aaron Rodgers in the 1st round and signed Charles Woodson in f/a a couple years later. Favre is a boderline top 10 all-time QB and White was a 1st ballot HOF DE- maybe the greatest DE in the history of the game. Rodgers will go down when he's finished as a top 5-10 QB all-time and Woodson is a 1st ballot HOF DB and one of maybe the 4 or 5 greatest DB's ever. 
Both their SB runs the catalysts were a HOF level QB and 1 HOF defensive player taking the defenses over the top. How many teams ever get that lucky with the QB position? Like none.

Mdot21

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #177 on: March 29, 2019, 03:27:53 PM »
The Chiefs made the wild card five times during Derrick Thomas' career and won their division twice. They had one conference championship appearance in all of those years.
The Lions had 5 wild card game losses in Sanders' span, and one divisional title (lost in conference championship game).
Deion only played in Atlanta from 1989-1993 (the only time that his draft history matters IMHO), and in that time the Falcons had one wild card appearance (win) but lost in the next round.
Mandarich was a head case, and was cut after 3 seasons in Green Bay. And those were bad teams as well, so I can't say that they were otherwise a well-run team (that was the era of Lindy Infante, and Holmgren replaced him in 1992 when Mandarich was cut). He was certainly a draft bust, that's sure. But it's not like the draft strategy of the Chiefs, Lions, or Falcons proves that taking those great players is the key to success.
The strategy isn't necessarily "how to draft", but "how to build a successful team". I may be wrong that OL/DL are the first priority to create a successful team, but your examples of Sanders/Thomas/Deion certainly didn't prove me wrong.
No my example was this: take the best player available. If any of those teams had taken an OL or DL instead of the players they did take- they'd have missed out on truly all-time great players for...what? For my money Barry is the best RB to ever touch a football and Deion is the best CB to ever lace them up. Derrick Thomas might not be the best LB ever, but he's in that conversation for sure.
Barry Sanders played with like 19 different scrub QB's over his 10 year career and never once had an elite OL. A few years they had some really solid OLs, but they never had an OL like Dallas or Denver. His head coach was Wayne Fontes for the bulk of his career. Not only did the poor guy never have even a legitimate starting QB, but his head coach for 80% of his career was a clown show.
As you said, Deion didn't really stay in Atlanta long enough- but the 2 Super Bowls he did win- he won with Steve Young and Troy Aikman QB'ing those teams. Sure helps to win a lot of games when you have all-time great QB's. Atlanta's all-time great QB was riding the bench and then got traded to Green Bay. Who were the Atlanta QB's in Deion's time there? Yeah, not good.
The years that Kansas City got Joe Montana- KC actually won some playoff games and made it to an AFC Chip game. Coincidence that Derrick Thomas' only two division wins and one conference championship appearance in those years is when he was playing with the pre-Brady GOAT? I think not.
Since basically the 1980s the NFL game has always been about the QB. It's just more about the QB now than it ever has been before. Now it's virtually impossible to win without an elite QB. Which is why you see QB's like Sam Darnold get taken so high and why you're about to see Arizona take another QB in the top 10 for two years in a row.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #178 on: March 29, 2019, 04:13:35 PM »
So what if in the 1990 draft, the Lions were up to pick and the best player available in the 1st round was another stud RB? And then in 1991 the best player available was another stud RB? 

Would you have wanted the Lions to be taking stud RB after stud RB, stockpiling them, instead of drafting positions of need? 

I think there's value in taking best player available. But it has to be balanced against need. If you want to build a team, you need to fill all 22 positions (plus special teams). Sometimes if you have a stud RB already, and the choices in the first round are another stud RB or the next-best player, a stud OG that will pave the way in run-blocking for your stud RB, you take the OG. (Or perhaps trade your pick to a team that needs to reach for a stud RB and make up the picks elsewhere to build out your roster). 

Mdot21

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #179 on: March 29, 2019, 07:26:54 PM »
So what if in the 1990 draft, the Lions were up to pick and the best player available in the 1st round was another stud RB? And then in 1991 the best player available was another stud RB?

Would you have wanted the Lions to be taking stud RB after stud RB, stockpiling them, instead of drafting positions of need?

I think there's value in taking best player available. But it has to be balanced against need. If you want to build a team, you need to fill all 22 positions (plus special teams). Sometimes if you have a stud RB already, and the choices in the first round are another stud RB or the next-best player, a stud OG that will pave the way in run-blocking for your stud RB, you take the OG. (Or perhaps trade your pick to a team that needs to reach for a stud RB and make up the picks elsewhere to build out your roster).
Yeah, I think you're taking what I said a bit too literally. Obviously need always plays into it. But if you already have a great RB and the best option at the pick is another stub RB, you trade down. Pick best player available while also keeping need in mind OR trade down and stockpile more picks. Staying put and reaching just because you want to draft on need never works out. Ever.
If you have an all-time great QB/WR/RB you don't need to keep taking one every draft. You can only play 1 QB and 1 RB at a time, and WR is such a dependent position it really doesn't even make sense to draft a WR in the 1st round unless he's an unbelievable talent like Calvin Johnson or Julio Jones.
You play 4 DL's, 3 LB's, and 4 DB's on defense and 5 OL's on offense. Taking the best pick available every time is pretty much A OK at that positions. QB/RB/WR- almost never is.
As for the Lions and the 1990 draft- yeah - they would've been better off taking a stud RB named Emmitt Smith even though they already had Barry. Why? Because they drafted Andre freakin' Ware's useless ass with the #7 pick that draft. They'd have been better taking just about any other player 8-30. That was a classic example of reaching based on need. They desperately needed a QB and Ware set all kinds of passing records playing in a gimmicky offense against terrible college defenses. Sound familiar to anyone in the draft this year?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #180 on: March 29, 2019, 08:22:55 PM »
A - they wouldnt have taken Emmitt at 7, because he was too slow.  Hehe.
B - actually, yes, you do take the RB if he's the best player on the board if you already have Barry Sanders and you immediately trade him - at the absolute maximum leverege possible.  You'd extract more from any team trying to trade up to your spot by securing his rights with the pick first, so then the team wanting him has to give you whatever you ask for.  If a team did that in 3 straight drafts, it'd make a killing.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MrNubbz

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Re: 2019 NFL Draft
« Reply #181 on: March 29, 2019, 08:31:16 PM »
For my money Barry is the best RB to ever touch a football and Deion is the best CB to ever lace them up. Derrick Thomas might not be the best LB ever, but he's in that conversation for sure.
He's in the convo - Payton,Martin,Tomlinson,Dickerson,Brown,Campbell.Always liked DT.Sanders actually ended his career with 1 more winning season than losing I remember reading I doubt Payton reached that.Well check that upon further review Sanders had 5 winning/losing seasons each.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 07:35:26 AM by MrNubbz »
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