Author
Topic: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote
(Read 9118 times)

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #28 on:** June 29, 2018, 07:42:01 PM »

Quote from: Entropy on June 29, 2018, 03:16:37 PM

I saw Frazier up close and watch him lead the team I love.. I saw him in the offense as a starter and I saw the same offense when he was out with a blood clot. I can't think of any QB I've seen I'd want to lead my team over Frazier. He was a winner. He made UNL's offense go from good/great to special. He was the heart of that team. He even did the little things to win.. he was a complete player. And he had amazing stats while missing a complete year.

I'd buy it more if UNL had dropped a couple of games with Berringer at QB. Hell, the 3rd-string guy came in and played and won, too.
This is what I'm talking about - guys like Frazier and Tebow - credited with willing their teams to victories. Eh, excuse me, you're ignoring UNL's 3 All-American offensive linemen and a sick defense. Without that OL, Frazier wasn't willing UNL to jack. Berringer couldn't run like Frazier, but he was a much better passer. He had a dominant OL in front of him and Phillips and Green behind him.
It's silly to say it, but of the 3 QBs to play for UNL since the middle of 1992-1995, Frazier was the only one to lose any games. Tebow won the Heisman in 2007, but Florida lost 4 games that year. Did Tebow fail to will them to victory? No, the defense was all FR and SO, and they gave up a ton of points. Simple.
Stats aren't some heartless, robotic, evil entity. They describe what actually happened. Not what we dream about or wish would happen, but the reality of it all.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #29 on:** June 29, 2018, 07:42:32 PM »

Quote from: FearlessF on June 29, 2018, 06:22:36 PM

this QB had a few rushing TDs - not the best OU qb

If this is what you're receiving from my posts, just stop reading them. FFS

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #30 on:** June 29, 2018, 07:50:02 PM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on June 29, 2018, 03:30:35 PM

If I was purely influenced by stats, I'd think Curtis Painter was a better QB than Brees. But that's just ridiculous. Brees was exciting to watch. Brees made his team better. Brees wasn't perfect, but you knew that with him as QB, the team always had a chance, no matter the opponent. Curtis Painter racked up some amazing stats, and broke some of Brees' records. But he did so by torching MAC and bad B1G teams, and falling all over himself against the best competition on the schedule.
Some stats are influenced by system [Brees' certainly are to some extent, Painter's definitely were]. When you're talking about "best to play the position", a lot more than stats come into it. I.e. when we talked about JT Barrett vs Drew Brees, you pointed out stats. But perhaps that just means that in Urban Meyer's system, the QB racks up stats even more than in Tiller's system. Alex Smith had some pretty good stats too...
For me, Tebow just never really "wowed" me as a QB. He was an outstanding overall football player, and very versatile. But I just never really saw him as the game-changer that everyone else apparently did. I saw him more as a cog in the Urban Meyer machine.

"Brees made his team better" - are you claiming to know what their record would've been with someone else taking snaps?
Brees vs ranked teams:
1998: 1-4
1999: 2-5
2000: 3-2..........6-11 vs ranked teams. But PU lost at least 4 games all three years he started. I think he gets a halo effect because he got them to a Rose Bowl (albeit with 3 losses going in).
Painter stunk - 0-10 vs ranked teams. Does that make 6-11 better? Does it up the win%?
I tell you what, Brees could've used some All-American linemen and some first-round running backs behind him - then he'd have gotten more votes than Frazier.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #31 on:** June 29, 2018, 07:53:15 PM »

Quote from: FearlessF on June 29, 2018, 03:28:55 PM

Frazier made the clutch plays, rose to the occasion, and willed his team to win against the odds. Going into a big game, there's no one else I'd rather have run the option offense.
not even Timmy Tebow

This is the crap that makes me gag. When were the odds stacked against Tommie Frazier?? Not blood clot thing, but on the field, from a talent disparity. All-Americans in front of him, blocking, All-Americans behind him, receiving pitches. And a limited backup who replaced him for over half a season and went undefeated.
Maybe one of us from the board could've "willed" UNL to some victories with that setup, no?

FearlessF · « **Reply #32 on:** June 29, 2018, 08:22:29 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 29, 2018, 07:53:15 PM

When were the odds stacked against Tommie Frazier?? Not blood clot thing, but on the field, from a talent disparity.

do a wee bit of research on the 1993 Seminole defense and recent past history of FSU success vs the Huskers in the Orange Bowl - 17 point favorites
then if you have time, check the 2-deep on the Canes 1994 defense and the history of that defense playing on their home field against any offense
then you know all about the Gator's 1995 defense - Opp Pts/G: 20.2 (31st of 108) - not great but not bad for an SEC schedule

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #33 on:** June 29, 2018, 09:44:52 PM »

We all know QBs and RBs get too much acclaim - yet with these certain guys, our heroes, we still do it. '95 Nebraska was all OL and defense - put any QB/RBs you want, they're winning the game. If UNL was a 17 point dog to FSU, it's because they had a history of coming up short in those Orange Bowls all those years, right?

No one talks about Frazier QBing Nebraska's all-time crazy loss to Iowa State. UNL was a 1-point underdog to CU in '94, which Berringer led them to a 24-7 win. No, the defense led them to the win. The OL willed them, right?

QBs get romanticized, OLs don't. Same with Tebow - the Pouncy twins contributed as much as he did. The defense, Percy Harvin, etc. If Tebow signed with Vandy, he ain't winning rings or trophies.

FearlessF · « **Reply #34 on:** June 29, 2018, 10:57:27 PM »

I could argue that the O-lines in the early 80's were as good or better than the mid 90s

mid 90's defense was better

1984 defense was stellar, but breaking in a new QB since Gill was gone

If Wuerffel had an O-line and a defense, he may have had the big legacy

FearlessF · « **Reply #35 on:** June 29, 2018, 11:14:02 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 29, 2018, 09:44:52 PM

No one talks about Frazier QBing Nebraska's all-time crazy loss to Iowa State. UNL was a 1-point underdog to CU in '94, which Berringer led them to a 24-7 win. No, the defense led them to the win. The OL willed them, right?

the 92 loss in Ames was crazy - surreal - this regarding freshman Frazier in that game
Husker QB Tommie Frazier was NU's leading rusher with 92 yards on 13 carries and completed a 15-yard pass to Lance Lewis for the only Husker touchdown on the day. Didn't throw a pick, didn't take a sack. Did not lose a fumble.
late in the second quarter, Frazier limped to the locker room with a bruised left knee.
He played the whole second half, but Nebraska gained just 81 yards in the final 30 minutes. From the middle of the second quarter to the middle of the fourth, the Huskers punted on seven straight possessions.
“Frazier played hurt,” Osborne said. “He wasn’t able to do some things in the second half that he was in the first.
“But we can’t blame the loss on that. They just beat us.”
Frazier was injured with 26 seconds left in the half. He said he took a helmet to his left knee.
Osborne said he considered using senior Mike Grant in the second half.
“We talked it over several times,” he said. “We just felt Tommie still was functioning well enough that he was OK, and that would give us the best chance to come back.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #36 on:** June 29, 2018, 11:39:15 PM »

See, that makes me want to say Osborne made a mistake by leaving him in.

And the larger point about coaching - when someone suggests a player (usually a QB) is the beneficiary of a system to discredit him somewhat - I go the other way and want to commend the coach. If a system QB performs incredibly and the team wins, the coach put him in position to do so.

But again, we assign some coaches with halos that should never be criticized...which uglies the conversation.

FearlessF · « **Reply #37 on:** June 30, 2018, 09:45:49 AM »

took Osborne 21 years of harsh criticism to earn his halo. Heck, even after winning his first title in 94 the press leading up to 96 Fiesta was all about Spurrier's genius offense vs Osborne's dinosaur offense and Spurrier's heading to the NFL.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #38 on:** June 30, 2018, 12:01:45 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on June 29, 2018, 07:50:02 PM

"Brees made his team better" - are you claiming to know what their record would've been with someone else taking snaps?
Brees vs ranked teams:
1998: 1-4
1999: 2-5
2000: 3-2..........6-11 vs ranked teams. But PU lost at least 4 games all three years he started. I think he gets a halo effect because he got them to a Rose Bowl (albeit with 3 losses going in).
Painter stunk - 0-10 vs ranked teams. Does that make 6-11 better? Does it up the win%?
I tell you what, Brees could've used some All-American linemen and some first-round running backs behind him - then he'd have gotten more votes than Frazier.

Brees would have won the Heisman if he was on a better team. But he was on an 8-3 team that made it into the Rose Bowl by virtue of tying two other B1G teams with a 6-2 conference record.
Who wins the Heisman? QB or RB on the best team. Florida State and Oklahoma were the best teams, so Weinke and Heupel finished higher. But does anyone really think Chris Weinke was the most outstanding CFB player in that 2000 season?
I honestly do think that the team's record would have been significantly worse without Brees. Purdue's record against ranked teams isn't so good in general. 6-11 against ranked teams at a school like Purdue, where you're consistently out-talented by those ranked teams, is actually not all that bad. Kyle Orton's pretty good, but Purdue was 3-13 against ranked teams from 2001-2004 when he was QB.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #39 on:** June 30, 2018, 09:53:56 PM »

I buy that argument in a Brees-Purdue situation, but it doesn't hold water for teams with talent like mid-90s Nebraska or Florida.

FearlessF · « **Reply #40 on:** July 01, 2018, 10:06:03 AM »

so, Brees wins the tiebreaker

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #41 on:** July 02, 2018, 12:53:13 AM »

Majority rules, of course. I just thought the guy who could run and pass would beat the one-dimensional guys.

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.

Topic: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

FearlessF

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

FearlessF

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

FearlessF

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

FearlessF

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

betarhoalphadelta

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

FearlessF

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote

OrangeAfroMan

Re: #15 Run-off Tiebreaker Vote