header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game

 (Read 9359 times)

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20309
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2018, 04:05:56 PM »
Ha. You're certainly not wrong about any of what you posted. Maybe the timing was also perfect since the fan base is still wondering how Higdon was flagged for a bizarre holding call, where he was body slammed.
And yes, that was a terrible call

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20309
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2018, 04:08:27 PM »
Any time Michigan fans think they have a legit gripe, your response is always "it can't be true because Michigan is a big money maker for the conference." In most cases, I understand your perspective, but that can't always be the out. On the flip side, I get it, some things are coincidence and the world is not out to get Michigan football.
Lastly, what's a reasonable explanation to one person may be unreasonable to another. I would argue, there's also big money in Michigan losses as well. Nowadays, media dollars are driven by both good an bad. Michigan losing to Appalachian State fed many media mouths for a long time.
Yes, there can be a legitimate gripe, I just don't buy that the legitimate gripe is some sort of conspiracy.  For example if it's that their guys are playing football while other guys are flailing as they've clearly been coached to do, that's a gripe.  Just like I don't buy any anti-MSU basketball officiating bias that some MSU fans claim.  I do buy that some coaches coach their kids to flop and draw charges rather than play defense.  Those are two different gripes.  There are bad calls, that Higdon holding for example.

I do think you are discounting other factors, such as teams removing large amounts of slower developing, higher reward type plays from their playbook, knowing that those plays will never have time to work.  I just buy something like that more than some anti-UM bias, particularly in such a specific way.  In conference play last year, Michigan opponents were called for 51 penalties, 7th most in the conference.  So they simply aren't getting called for one specific penalty.  The number called in total is squarely in the middle.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:14:45 PM by ELA »

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2018, 11:35:02 PM »
A conspiracy theory against at worst the 2nd biggest money generator in the league fails to even get off the ground.

That's also only accepted holding calls.  I'd be far more interested in seeing total holding calls.  First, it would make sense that an elite defense would have a lower percentage of called holdings accepted because there's a higher chance of a play being made elsewhere.  Either one player getting held while another player got a sack, or still getting an incomplete pass on a 3rd down.  Something like that.  Second, an elite defensive line presumably would cause teams to scheme differently.  Why is Indiana at the top of that list and Michigan at the bottom?  Possibly because the gameplan against Michigan is that you better get that ball out quickly to try and negate that DL.  Third, maybe there's some amount of coaching involved there.  Just like you see more and more basketball player flail their heads back driving down the lane, you see more and more defensive linemen throw their hands up in the air, drawing fouls where (a) one may not exist or (b) one may exist, but would not have been seen but for the arms flailing.  Or maybe it's just dumb luck.
A. I agree that elite DLs should in theory have lower (sometimes even far lower) accepted opponent holds. But the total holds you asked for were posted in the same graphic and Michigan's opponents were a *drastic* outlier in that category, too.
B. Conspiracy theories are anathema to me. The point here isn't to chase a boogeyman. It's to acknowledge that this observation is highly unusual and politely demands explanation.
C. You're right. The idea that some nebulous Big Ten "decider" in the administrator's office "wants" Michigan to lose and is orchestrating it to be so is dumb. But that's not the idea anyone here is pushing.
D. I acknowledged it could be outrageously "dumb luck" but if that's the lead theory, let's not forget to emphasize the "outrageous" and continue to return with the expectation of a dramatic return to the mean.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 11:44:58 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2018, 11:35:22 PM »
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 11:47:52 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2018, 11:39:12 PM »

Whether you call that peculiar or call it fishy is just a stylistic choice, somewhat dependent on your affinity for conspiracies. I don't care about all that.
That it is fixed fast and explained faster is all that matters to me.

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2018, 12:05:15 AM »
Somewhat tangentially:

I'm WAY past ready for the Big Ten to use its jerk money for full-time professional refs. It's dumb that a once/week ref can't feed a family of two (and barely a family of one) on his salary ... and that we act surprised at the quality of the calls.

And, no, paying them more can't guarantee there won't be weekly fan outcry, but at least it will be a gesture of good faith that the best refs are being chased. Not to mention that competitive pay is necessary for a healthy pipeline of officials. I'd like to see the cost/benefit of giving Big Ten refs NFL-equivalent salaries.

More transparency and individual accountability of refs is overdue as well. A few years back, the NBA started publishing extensive details for all calls and no calls in the last 2 minutes of close games. That would be a good start.

Big Ten refs need to be independently rated on performance, with transparency and consequences. Unfortunately, without higher salaries, the incentives to be a ref in such a system are low. The whole system needs a revolution.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:10:47 AM by Anonymous Coward »

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14334
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2018, 12:17:12 AM »
Somewhat tangentially:

I'm WAY past ready for the Big Ten to use its jerk money for full-time professional refs. It's dumb that a once/week ref can't feed a family of two (and barely a family of one) on his salary ... and that we act surprised at the quality of the calls.

And, no, paying them more can't guarantee there won't be weekly fan outcry, but at least it will be a gesture of good faith that the best refs are being chased. Not to mention that competitive pay is necessary for a healthy pipeline of officials. I'd like to see the cost/benefit of giving Big Ten refs NFL-equivalent salaries.

More transparency and individual accountability of refs is overdue as well. A few years back, the NBA started publishing extensive details for all calls and no calls in the last 2 minutes of close games. That would be a good start.

Big Ten refs need to be independently rated on performance, with transparency and consequences. Unfortunately, without higher salaries, the incentives to be a ref in such a system are low. The whole system needs a revolution.
they should put trackers in the field and football to help determine 1st downs.
Also they should just get rid of all officials on the field except maybe 2 - 1 on each side of the LOS and have guys sitting in booths watching the game from every imaginable angle in real time in constant communication with guys on the field telling them what penalties to call or penalties not to call or which ones they missed.

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2506
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2018, 05:11:01 AM »
Since the targeting call on Bolden in East Lansing in 2016 I’ve been ready to flush instant reply.  Its morphed into something that takes too long, stops the flow of the game, and they still get obvious calls wrong.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »
GPS'ing balls has been suggested for years. It could help but on its own could not account for when a person's knee or elbow hit the ground. So it would require an elaboration of the powers of the review room, which may not be a good idea (for game flow or for getting it right).

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20309
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2018, 10:37:45 AM »
GPS'ing balls has been suggested for years. It could help but on its own could not account for when a person's knee or elbow hit the ground. So it would require an elaboration of the powers of the review room, which may not be a good idea (for game flow or for getting it right).
I would think trackers in the ball and markers, that would cause the markers to light up or signal when the three markers created a straight line would be how you would do that.  It would still likely involve replay, but you could compare the knee to a light, similar to basketball comparing whether a shot is touching a players hand or not when the clock expires.  I don't think it would eliminate replay, but it would help ensure that replay is correct.  Spot of the ball outside of when the line to gain matches a mark on the field has to be the toughest call to overturn, and I think it would simply change that.
Problem is, this is only an issue when we are talking inches, and I don't know how you guarantee that the markers are precisely lined up with each other.

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2018, 10:38:28 AM »
Also they should just get rid of all officials on the field except maybe 2 - 1 on each side of the LOS and have guys sitting in booths watching the game from every imaginable angle in real time in constant communication with guys on the field telling them what penalties to call or penalties not to call or which ones they missed.
That's a radical idea. The game may inch in that direction. However I don't want football to ever throw a flag on literally *every* call. The game would never move or end. Because almost every play may have plenty of penalties. I just want a judgment call machine (let's call it a referee) to be fair and proportional when estimating which number of real penalties to see and flag.

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2018, 10:42:19 AM »
Meanwhile I was hoping for more conversation on the image atop this page. There's clustering of everyone except Michigan, including a general trend that matches DL quality (I.E.: for everyone except Michigan, the average slope is negative, with its line passing from the top-left to bottom-right of the graph) ... and then Michigan is chilling in Guam (counter to the slope, in the top-right) without rhyme or reason.
It's absurd.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:13:13 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • Liked:
Re: #14 Michigan (2-0, 4-1) at Northwestern (1-1, 1-3) Post Game
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2018, 12:07:18 PM »
At 10.5, Chase Winovich now leads the nation in TFLs. Not bad for a guy who can't draw an opponent holding call.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.