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Topic: #14 Michigan (2-0, 5-0) at Wisconsin (0-2, 1-3) Post Game

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ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2021, 01:29:20 PM »
UW needs an OL coach.

They have a great one on staff, coaching the MLB's...
IMO, that's the most important position coach.

MSU wasted away under Bollman

Cincydawg

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2021, 01:32:29 PM »
How much of OL play is ...

strength
weight
technique
understanding the scheme
speed
arm lemgth
holding without holding
luck

847badgerfan

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2021, 02:03:52 PM »
How much of OL play is ...

strength
weight
technique
understanding the scheme
speed
arm lemgth
holding without holding
luck
Development.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2021, 02:07:57 PM »
so, all of the above
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2021, 02:44:59 PM »
Development.
Exactly.

Which is why it's the most important position coach.  The only FBS lineman I saw in person in high school was Robert Kugler, who wound up going to UM, but was an MSU priority recruit at the time, and the son of former NFL player and (at the time) Steeler OL coach.

I posted here at the time, that I wasn't sure what to make of him.  He literally pancaked his man on every play.  He wasn't going to be able to do that at the next level, and I never saw him do anything else.  All of these FBS lineman can whip guys around in high school.  They are 300+ lb dudes, frequently lined up across from 220 pound kids.  Speed translates.  All of these skill position players are also faster than the guys guarding them, but you can get measurables.  Vision, with RBs, is often tough to translate.  But if a WR is fast, and has good hands, that works.  With linemen, these guys are all stronger than 95% of the guys they line up against, and almost never have good technique.

That's why my #1 recruiting goal for MSU in 2022 is current Kentucky commit Kiyaunta Goodwin.  His ability to get to the next level, to get downfield, is unlike anything I've seen with high end HS OL recruits.

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2021, 02:46:44 PM »

#14 Michigan Wolverines (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin Badgers (0-1, 1-2)
NOON - Madison, WI - FOX
If you squint hard enough, the Michigan team that takes the field in Madison will look a whole lot like the Badgers teams we've grown accustomed to.  The Wolverines went from running the ball just 43.77% of the time in 2020, second lowest in the Big Ten, to 73.71% this year, 4th highest in the nation, and the highest of any non service academy.  So far, so good.  But against Rutgers, we finally saw the chinks in the armor.  The Wolverines didn't score a touchdown over the final 44:40 game time, and didn't just not score in the second half, they only picked up one first down over the final 35 minutes.  But, Michigan had a three score lead, and still didn't HAVE to pass their way out of it.  How good is Cade McNamera?  Tough to say.  He hasn't attempted enough passes to qualify for a QBR rating.  Northwestern's Hunter Johnson is last in the Big Ten, and has been benched in multiple games, but has thrown enough passes to qualify.  Speaking of bad, but qualifying quarterbacks, Wisconsin has Graham Mertz.  PAA, a stat which accounts for how many points a quarterback is responsible for, compared to a replacement level quarterback (think baseball WAR, for QBs), and Mertz is dead last in the FBS at -20.8.  But that can be some bad luck.  Nope.  In terms of expected points added, he is also dead last in the FBS, at -13.7.  He is the only quarterback in the Big Ten that actually has a negative expected points added on passing downs.  So why even think Bucky has a chance?  Well, first, Michigan hasn't won in Madison since 2001.  In 2001, Jim Harbaugh was still a backup quarterback for the Carolina Panthers, and Cade McNamera was 1 year old.  Second, Rutgers was able to greatly slow down the Wolverines offense by just stopping the run.  Michigan's leading receiver in terms of yardage did so on one reception (51 yards).  The rushing attack was held to just 2.9 ypc, and even in a blowout loss last week, Wisconsin held Notre Dame to just 9 yards on 33 carries.  The problem is Rutgers also turned the ball over just once.  Wisconsin has struggled to run the ball, and Mertz has struggled to not throw interceptions when he's had to throw it, one of only two Power 5 quarterbacks averaging an interception on over 7% of his pass attempts.  And let's not go into Florida State, whose the only other one.
MICHIGAN 28, WISCONSIN 20


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2021, 02:53:56 PM »
I posted here at the time, that I wasn't sure what to make of him.  He literally pancaked his man on every play.  He wasn't going to be able to do that at the next level, and I never saw him do anything else.  All of these FBS lineman can whip guys around in high school.  They are 300+ lb dudes, frequently lined up across from 220 pound kids.  Speed translates.  All of these skill position players are also faster than the guys guarding them, but you can get measurables.  Vision, with RBs, is often tough to translate.  But if a WR is fast, and has good hands, that works.  With linemen, these guys are all stronger than 95% of the guys they line up against, and almost never have good technique.
Yep. Same issue you see in basketball with big men. When you're 7' and you've literally never been guarded by anyone over 6'8" in your HS career, transitioning into the Big Ten and walking onto the court across from Kofi Cockburn is a bit of a shock lol.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2021, 03:49:23 PM »
Yep. Same issue you see in basketball with big men. When you're 7' and you've literally never been guarded by anyone over 6'8" in your HS career, transitioning into the Big Ten and walking onto the court across from Kofi Cockburn is a bit of a shock lol.
Really it is true across the board.  The athletes we cheer for in CFP and CBB at this level are INCREDIBLY elite.  In HS they were:
  • 300 lb OL's per @ELA who rarely ever lined up across from a DL over 220 or
  • 7' C's per @betarhoalphadelta who rarely ever guarded or were guarded by anyone within half a foot of their height or
  • CB's who could run sub 4.4 40's who rarely ever covered a WR with a sub 5.0 40.  

None of the above need technique in HS.  In HS their size/height/speed is so much better than their opponents that it makes up for a lot.  I honestly don't have any idea how coaches/recruiters can look at these guys and figure out which ones are going to do well against equals and which ones are never going to figure out how to play the game when the guy across from you is as big/tall/fast as you are rather than 80lb lighter / 6" shorter / half a second slower.  


847badgerfan

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2021, 04:31:32 PM »
#14 Michigan Wolverines (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin Badgers (0-1, 1-2)
NOON - Madison, WI - FOX
If you squint hard enough, the Michigan team that takes the field in Madison will look a whole lot like the Badgers teams we've grown accustomed to.  The Wolverines went from running the ball just 43.77% of the time in 2020, second lowest in the Big Ten, to 73.71% this year, 4th highest in the nation, and the highest of any non service academy.  So far, so good.  But against Rutgers, we finally saw the chinks in the armor.  The Wolverines didn't score a touchdown over the final 44:40 game time, and didn't just not score in the second half, they only picked up one first down over the final 35 minutes.  But, Michigan had a three score lead, and still didn't HAVE to pass their way out of it.  How good is Cade McNamera?  Tough to say.  He hasn't attempted enough passes to qualify for a QBR rating.  Northwestern's Hunter Johnson is last in the Big Ten, and has been benched in multiple games, but has thrown enough passes to qualify.  Speaking of bad, but qualifying quarterbacks, Wisconsin has Graham Mertz.  PAA, a stat which accounts for how many points a quarterback is responsible for, compared to a replacement level quarterback (think baseball WAR, for QBs), and Mertz is dead last in the FBS at -20.8.  But that can be some bad luck.  Nope.  In terms of expected points added, he is also dead last in the FBS, at -13.7.  He is the only quarterback in the Big Ten that actually has a negative expected points added on passing downs.  So why even think Bucky has a chance?  Well, first, Michigan hasn't won in Madison since 2001.  In 2001, Jim Harbaugh was still a backup quarterback for the Carolina Panthers, and Cade McNamera was 1 year old.  Second, Rutgers was able to greatly slow down the Wolverines offense by just stopping the run.  Michigan's leading receiver in terms of yardage did so on one reception (51 yards).  The rushing attack was held to just 2.9 ypc, and even in a blowout loss last week, Wisconsin held Notre Dame to just 9 yards on 33 carries.  The problem is Rutgers also turned the ball over just once.  Wisconsin has struggled to run the ball, and Mertz has struggled to not throw interceptions when he's had to throw it, one of only two Power 5 quarterbacks averaging an interception on over 7% of his pass attempts.  And let's not go into Florida State, whose the only other one.
MICHIGAN 28, WISCONSIN 20


So, 3 pick-6's from Mertz, and a PR or KR for TD?

Got it.

Not sure how UW gets to 20 though.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2021, 04:38:43 PM »
Well, it can be very hard, but that's why they have things like Elite 11 camps for QBs, like AAU ball in basketball, etc. It's why big schools will sponsor their own football and basketball camps, why former pros will set up camps (and invite recruiters), etc. 

But it's also why there's groupthink in recruiting. I.e. if a recruit is getting attention from Bama and OSU but they're rated as a 3*, sometimes they'll get a ratings bump because the ratings folks suddenly think they MUST have missed something. 

It's why basketball players who (for injury or other reasons) miss a summer of AAU ball often fly under the radar recruiting-wise because they weren't "seen". It's also why some players get huge boosts from their AAU success but then fall flat in real college basketball, because the style of play in AAU is all about scoring and not so much about disciplined team basketball. Heck, it's one of the reasons that Purdue has beaten IU in basketball for going on 5 years straight. IU often gets those AAU stars but hasn't excelled at putting together a basketball team, whereas Painter is extremely good at identifying high-BBIQ players who may not have the same physical gifts and teaching them how to work well together

Recruiters are right more often than they're wrong, but it's an inexact science and always will be. Heck, the NFL draft gets it right more than it gets it wrong, but it's an equally inexact science. 

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2021, 08:02:24 AM »
UW needs an OL coach.

They have a great one on staff, coaching the MLB's...
Ironically, they seem to have pretty good MLBs.

(They also have the issue that Chryst likes the OL coach and the TE coach, so the natural shuffling point is an issue)

847badgerfan

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2021, 08:14:43 AM »
Ironically, they seem to have pretty good MLBs.

(They also have the issue that Chryst likes the OL coach and the TE coach, so the natural shuffling point is an issue)
I think Bostad could coach any position. He's just a great coach.

And yeah. It's hard to fire your buddies, but it's time.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2021, 08:26:31 AM »
Well, it can be very hard, but that's why they have things like Elite 11 camps for QBs, like AAU ball in basketball, etc. It's why big schools will sponsor their own football and basketball camps, why former pros will set up camps (and invite recruiters), etc.

But it's also why there's groupthink in recruiting. I.e. if a recruit is getting attention from Bama and OSU but they're rated as a 3*, sometimes they'll get a ratings bump because the ratings folks suddenly think they MUST have missed something.

It's why basketball players who (for injury or other reasons) miss a summer of AAU ball often fly under the radar recruiting-wise because they weren't "seen". It's also why some players get huge boosts from their AAU success but then fall flat in real college basketball, because the style of play in AAU is all about scoring and not so much about disciplined team basketball. Heck, it's one of the reasons that Purdue has beaten IU in basketball for going on 5 years straight. IU often gets those AAU stars but hasn't excelled at putting together a basketball team, whereas Painter is extremely good at identifying high-BBIQ players who may not have the same physical gifts and teaching them how to work well together.

Recruiters are right more often than they're wrong, but it's an inexact science and always will be. Heck, the NFL draft gets it right more than it gets it wrong, but it's an equally inexact science.
I mean, at a certain point, they're all kids, and that's just kinda the long and short of it.

You can gather kids together and have them compete. You can see the way the move. You can have the best play the best in practice or even game situations, and learn what you can. But every kid is gonna have drawbacks and every one is gonna be a gamble.

Some let college get to them. Some get overwhelmed. Some bought their own hype and get beat out by kids who didn't. It's an ever-evolving tapestry.

I always think about the case of Marques Colston. Coming out of college, he was a tall, thick receiver with modest speed who played at a small school and wasn’t great. In some sense, one might argue that the NFL should’ve seen whatever it was that made him a future pretty good player.

But he’s said that part of why he got better was that he was so pissed off at being a seventh rounder, he threw himself into the work. And that combined with his gifts, somewhat modest ones for the NFL, to power and uber-productive career. (He also had Drew Brees)

You mentioned the groupthink part, which I sort of agree with and sort of don’t. On the one hand, I think there are all sorts of quirks with the rankings, some that obscure the truth. On the other, I think leveraging the best expertise out there is also pretty helpful.

Because I’m thinking about stories, there was a kid the local college landed a few years back. Big DT, tall, highly athletic. Had a good number of offers, with one current title contender very hard after him. Even then, everyone knew he was soft. But there’s only so many kids that size who move like that, and a staff figured, get him into the program, get him away from mama’s coddling, and we could have a player. (They don’t. He’s still soft, but it’s worth the hassle to potentially have a kid with that physical ceiling if you only have a few)

Sorry to go one, but I think the ins and outs are fascinating. Had a few other random stories that fascinate me that were cut for time. 

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (1-0, 4-0) at Wisconsin (0-1, 1-2) Game Week
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2021, 08:30:09 AM »
I think Bostad could coach any position. He's just a great coach.

And yeah. It's hard to fire your buddies, but it's time.
Also a sligt issue with the UW player to coach pipeline. 

I think Turner is pretty decent, but he's likely not gonna leave to open a spot. (I wonder if PC's nephew moves up to QB coach with one of the next openings)

 

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