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Topic: #11 USC (2-1, 0-1) at #18 Michigan (3-1, 1-0) Postgame

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utee94

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2024, 10:12:10 PM »
dipsticks?!?!?!?
It comes from a place of love.  I don't REALLY want to hurt your feelings... :)

GopherRock

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2024, 11:57:29 PM »
dipsticks?!?!?!?
Clearly you don't know how much 0W-20 full synthetic it takes to keep the system running. 

MrNubbz

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2024, 09:04:14 AM »
Meh, every single one of OU's football titles is at least as tainted, but I don't hear any of you yahoos howling about that.
Not even close Junior the dirt burglars weren't that sharp and I'm sure there's no "Surly" Boosters on the 40 Acres ;D
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

utee94

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2024, 09:40:04 AM »
Not even close Junior the dirt burglars weren't that sharp and I'm sure there's no "Surly" Boosters on the 40 Acres ;D
Lulzno


« Last Edit: September 18, 2024, 09:45:20 AM by utee94 »

CatsbyAZ

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2024, 10:56:38 AM »
For all the 'cheater talk' in this thread, at least Michigan leveraged something out of it, winning a National Championship during the season that also blew up in scandal. How many other schools are busted for cheating without any trophies to show for it? Texas A&M, Arizona State, North Carolina, Miami.

As for the game Vs USC, Michigan loses something like 24-10 this Saturday. The Wolverines have shown nothing to indicate they're picking up where Harbaugh left them off. Michigan is playing more like what they were before Harbaugh took over. 

I'm reminded of watching the Brady Hoke years with my older cousin, a big Michigan fan who goes to some of the games. After Michigan beat UCONN in a frustrating 24-21 game in 2013, he got on the phone with his UM buddies and started shouting "Where're we gonna get SIX wins! Where're we gonna get SIX wins!" 

The same thing I think he'll be saying after Saturday's USC game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNxuGMbE3c

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2024, 11:04:25 AM »
Meh, every single one of OU's football titles is at least as tainted, but I don't hear any of you yahoos howling about that.

Auburn with Cam Newton.

USC with Reggie Bush.

Tons of football titles are tainted, and the only people who ever give a rat's ass about it, are the closest rivals.
I disagree, payin players is a different form of cheating and something that has been going on since the beginning of the sport

stealing signs is also a lifelong thing, but not to this EXTENT

this is unprecedented and should be treated as such
I'm with @FearlessF on this and I'll add that another neutral fan, @betarhoalphadelta called it "one of the most egregious college football scandals (he'd) ever seen.  I'm in that camp and NOT just because it is Michigan.  I'll explain:

OU:  The usual paying players but the institution (to the best of my knowledge) didn't actually write checks.  The actual violations were committed by boosters and kids.  

Auburn with Cam Newton:  I've brought this one up as a comparison many times.  Again, the institution did not commit the violation.  Boosters paid a kid (actually a kid's dad's church).  

USC with Reggie Bush:  Agents paid a kid.  Again, the institution did not commit the violation.  

Similarly, SM has alleged repeatedly that various tOSU players got "hundred-dollar handshakes", no-show jobs, and the like.  I'm sure it has happened in the past at tOSU but I'm equally sure that it has happened at his Michigan, @utee94 's Texas, @FearlessF 's Nebraska, and probably even at @betarhoalphadelta 's Purdue.  In all of those cases boosters and/or agents and kids broke a rule.  It happens.  

The Cam Newton situation and the Fab Five scandal were different in scale.  Newton didn't get a hundred dollar handshake or a few bucks from a no-show job, allegedly his father's church got something like half a freaking million dollars.  The Fab Five was even worse as they had a near-NBA level payroll.  

This scandal is very different (and much worse) not because it differs in scale but because it differs in type.  The violation wasn't committed by a booster, agent, or kid.  The violation was committed by an employee of the institution.  The institution is inextricably involved because it was their employee cheated.  This wasn't a failure to monitor (or more realistically at a lot of schools, an intentional effort not to notice) violations committed by kids and agents/boosters.  This was the institution itself actively flaunting the rules and throwing sportsmanship to the trash.  

Then the institution chose to do NOTHING once the whole scheme was uncovered.  As I've said, Ohio State fired a NC winning coach for failing to disclose one email that had notified him of a violation committed by kids.  That is the reaction I expect from respectable institutions.  Michigan tried to re-sign their cheating coach then, when he beat the posse out of town they hired an underling who had obstructed the NCAA's investigation by destroying evidence.  What kind of institution does that?  

utee94

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2024, 11:27:20 AM »
I'm with @FearlessF on this and I'll add that another neutral fan, @betarhoalphadelta called it "one of the most egregious college football scandals (he'd) ever seen.  I'm in that camp and NOT just because it is Michigan.  I'll explain:

OU:  The usual paying players but the institution (to the best of my knowledge) didn't actually write checks.  The actual violations were committed by boosters and kids. 

Auburn with Cam Newton:  I've brought this one up as a comparison many times.  Again, the institution did not commit the violation.  Boosters paid a kid (actually a kid's dad's church). 

USC with Reggie Bush:  Agents paid a kid.  Again, the institution did not commit the violation. 

Similarly, SM has alleged repeatedly that various tOSU players got "hundred-dollar handshakes", no-show jobs, and the like.  I'm sure it has happened in the past at tOSU but I'm equally sure that it has happened at his Michigan, @utee94 's Texas, @FearlessF 's Nebraska, and probably even at @betarhoalphadelta 's Purdue.  In all of those cases boosters and/or agents and kids broke a rule.  It happens. 

The Cam Newton situation and the Fab Five scandal were different in scale.  Newton didn't get a hundred dollar handshake or a few bucks from a no-show job, allegedly his father's church got something like half a freaking million dollars.  The Fab Five was even worse as they had a near-NBA level payroll. 

This scandal is very different (and much worse) not because it differs in scale but because it differs in type.  The violation wasn't committed by a booster, agent, or kid.  The violation was committed by an employee of the institution.  The institution is inextricably involved because it was their employee cheated.  This wasn't a failure to monitor (or more realistically at a lot of schools, an intentional effort not to notice) violations committed by kids and agents/boosters.  This was the institution itself actively flaunting the rules and throwing sportsmanship to the trash. 

Then the institution chose to do NOTHING once the whole scheme was uncovered.  As I've said, Ohio State fired a NC winning coach for failing to disclose one email that had notified him of a violation committed by kids.  That is the reaction I expect from respectable institutions.  Michigan tried to re-sign their cheating coach then, when he beat the posse out of town they hired an underling who had obstructed the NCAA's investigation by destroying evidence.  What kind of institution does that? 

Nope.  It's no different.  You care about it because they're your hated rival.  In 12 months nobody is going to remember or care about this, in the same way you don't care that OU engaged in over 5 decades of institutionalized cheating and that's the only reason they have any titles at all.  Your dismissal of OU's egregious cheating is only proving my point. You don't care that they have numerous ill-gotten titles.  You don't care at all.

Nobody currently cares about Michigan's actions nearly as much as Ohio State fans, and in a year nobody will care or bother to bring it up, other than Ohio State fans.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2024, 11:42:26 AM by utee94 »

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2024, 11:37:28 AM »
 @betarhoalphadelta called it "one of the most egregious college football scandals (he'd) ever seen.  

You keep coming back to that statement, so I do want to soften it a little bit with some context. 

I'm younger than a lot of you folks here. In that way, I haven't been following college football as long or as closely as some of you just based on my age. 

I'm older than some folks here. But unlike many of you, I did not grow up in a household that cared about college football. It was the Chicago suburbs and my parents went to colleges without football teams, so the fall was about the Bears, not Illinois or Northwestern or even Notre Dame (we weren't Catholic or Irish after all). Especially since one of my formative memories was the '85 Bears winning the Super Bowl when I was 7. 

I didn't start my college football fandom until my sophomore year at Purdue, 1997, as we sucked in 1996 so I didn't attend any games. And in 1996 I was in the dorms. In 1997 I moved into the fraternity house, got season tickets with them, and that's when it really started. Even then, I mostly thought about Purdue and the Big Ten. 

So I haven't seen or paid attention to TONS of college football scandals. I mean, a couple of the big ones were Reggie Bush, Cam Newton, tattoogate, and of course the Penn State mess that wasn't really a "football" scandal at all. It just happened within the football program. I'm probably missing a few, of course. Even going to basketball, the Fab Five is ancient history to me and I have zero emotional response to it despite it being as I understand it a pretty major scandal. 

And yes, I do think it happens everywhere. Do I think any Purdue boosters are throwing down the sort of dollars that reportedly lured Cam Newton? No, of course not. Our boosters don't care that much. Do I think it's a virtual certainty that many Purdue athletes over the nearly 30 years that I've followed the sport have received impermissible benefits. Of course. There are too many places where it could happen under the radar that I'm not going to claim some moral high ground just to be proven wrong down the road. 

This was different. It was a complex, orchestrated scheme, that had to involve multiple members of Michigan staff directly. And on top of that, it was directly about gaining a competitive on the field advantage far beyond any sort of effort any team had ever made to decipher opponents' signs, including blatantly violating the rule against advanced in-person scouting. 

From a moral perspective, this scandal doesn't even come close to potentially harboring a pedophile like Penn State. From a football perspective, however, it does. 

MrNubbz

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"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2024, 11:50:36 AM »
Nope.  It's no different.  You care about it because they're your hated rival.  In 12 months nobody is going to remember or care about this, in the same way you don't care that OU cheated egregiously for 5 decades and that's the only reason they have any titles at all.  Your dismissal of OU's egregious cheating is only proving my point. You don't care that they have numerous ill-gotten titles.  You don't care at all.

Nobody currently cares about Michigan's actions nearly as much as Ohio State fans, and in a year nobody will care or bother to bring it up, other than Ohio State fans.
That's true, and it's not. I agree with you that many of the OSU fans here care about it MORE because it's Michigan than anything else. And I think Michigan fans are trying to bury it now and "move on" because they know that a decade from now, all anyone will remember about 2023 is Michigan won the national championship and there won't be an asterisk hanging over it for eternity. I'm sure I'll have forgotten about it by then while OSU fans will still be bringing it up, just like M fans and tattoogate. 

But I think the reason this whole thing shocked the college football world last year is that I agree with medina that it's different. We've never seen anything like this, at least in college. Both the type of cheating, and the scope of the scheme. The whole Spygate thing with the Patriots is about the closest that I can come up with, and there are fans around the NFL who will always call Belichick a cheater for the rest of their lives because of it.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2024, 12:00:56 PM »
You keep coming back to that statement, so I do want to soften it a little bit with some context.
Fair.  
This was different. It was a complex, orchestrated scheme, that had to involve multiple members of Michigan staff directly. And on top of that, it was directly about gaining a competitive on the field advantage far beyond any sort of effort any team had ever made to decipher opponents' signs, including blatantly violating the rule against advanced in-person scouting.
This IS my point.  It wasn't boosters/agents and kids, it was the institution.  
That's true, and it's not. I agree with you that many of the OSU fans here care about it MORE because it's Michigan than anything else. And I think Michigan fans are trying to bury it now and "move on" because they know that a decade from now, all anyone will remember about 2023 is Michigan won the national championship and there won't be an asterisk hanging over it for eternity. I'm sure I'll have forgotten about it by then while OSU fans will still be bringing it up, just like M fans and tattoogate.

But I think the reason this whole thing shocked the college football world last year is that I agree with medina that it's different. We've never seen anything like this, at least in college. Both the type of cheating, and the scope of the scheme. The whole Spygate thing with the Patriots is about the closest that I can come up with, and there are fans around the NFL who will always call Belichick a cheater for the rest of their lives because of it.
Maybe some of it for me is that I've heard about tattoogate for over a decade and that was:
  • A ridiculously minor to the point of triviality violation.  Kids didn't even get 'free' stuff, they traded their own stuff for tattoos.  
  • When it was provably discovered that the NC-winning HC knew about it, he was promptly fired by the institution.  


The cheating at Michigan was NOT boosters/agents and kids and the institution didn't fire those complicit.  It didn't even fire a guy who actively obstructed the NCAA investigation by destroying evidence.  Not only did they not fire him, they promoted him and signed a contract holding him immune from the destruction of evidence.  That is why I call the institution trash.  They are.  

847badgerfan

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2024, 12:01:58 PM »
Are USC and Michigan playing this weekend?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

utee94

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2024, 12:04:27 PM »
Are USC and Michigan playing this weekend?
Probably?  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #11 USC (2-0, 0-0) at #18 Michigan (2-1, 0-0) Game Week
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2024, 12:11:47 PM »
From a moral perspective, this scandal doesn't even come close to potentially harboring a pedophile like Penn State. From a football perspective, however, it does.
My take on this has always been that the NCAA should never have gotten involved.  There is simply nothing they could do that would be sufficient to punish pedophilia and/or harboring a pedophile.  That isn't a football/sports/ncaa violation, it is a criminal matter that should have been and was dealt with by the appropriate criminal jurisdiction.  

Jerry Sandusky is a vile monster and just to be clear I don't hold mere cheaters like Jim Harbaugh, Connor Stallions, and Sherrone Moore in anywhere NEAR the contempt that I hold Sandusky.  

From the perspective of the NCAA, however, I don't think they had any reason to be involved in the prosecution of Jerry Sandusky because his transgressions were criminal in nature and thus should have been (and were) dealt with by the appropriate criminal authorities.  

The transgressions of Harbaugh, Stallions, Moore, and I'll add Tressel were not criminal.  They were violations of sports-related rules.  Thus, the NCAA is the appropriate authority to address them.  

When Tressel failed to disclose an email he got a five year show-cause.  

 

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