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Topic: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?

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ATexasVol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2019, 01:16:54 PM »
The left never seems to talk about policy.

Uh-oh - why do I have a feeling Texie's about to mention policies he just said the left never mentions...

Kat did not mention policy.   My liberal friends never talk about policy.   But every candidate on that stage has a leftist agenda.   

far-left policies to the WH that are demonstrably bad for the country:
 
Like what?

free college

College debt is good?  Got it.

You must think that the minority of people who had the advantage of obtaining a college degree should have their debt paid off by hardworking taxpayers, 2/3 of whom don't have degrees or already paid their own student debt off.   That's immoral, but I'm sure it makes sense in your world.   

free healthcare for illegal immigrants

Realistically, as much pleasure as you must have taken in that photo of the dead parent and child in the river this week, we can't let them die on the sidewalk outside a hospital. 

Much as you relish the stories of the Americans murdered by illegal immigrants.  Those just don't get the same coverage in the media you consume.   Realistically, if we offer free healthcare to 20 million illegals, we're going to have another 40 million come here.  How are we going to pay for it?   Oh yeah, "tax the 1%".    

reparations, etc.

That wasn't mentioned (thankfully)

But it's on Pete's website:   
  • Create a commission to propose reparations policies for Black Americans and close the racial wealth gap

Trump, despite not having mastered English, will destroy him on his record and policy.

It's going to be fun to watch the campaign.  

Yes it is.   

fuzzynavol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2019, 01:17:29 PM »
What would smart guns prevent crimewise if they were practicable?

There's no "if" - it might be "when" if they're not already developed.  

Bear in mind we have somewhere around 300 million dumb guns out there today.

That's the smartest thing you'll say today.

Now, perhaps in a century, maybe so.  Maybe.  Guns last a long time if properly maintained. 

So you think the gun market is saturated - no more sales moving forward?  

Accidental use by children - check.
Someone stealing your gun - check.

You've lost me here - are you answering your own question to contradict your own point? 



Cincydawg

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2019, 01:19:38 PM »
I suppose my "point" is too sophisticated for you, even though it's obvious.

Let me know when the technology is really practicable.  It is not today at all.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2019, 01:24:20 PM »

Kat did not mention policy.

I didn't respond to Katman's post - I responded to yours where you said the Dems didn't discuss policy and proceeded to list off a bunch of policies they discussed.

My liberal friends never talk about policy.

Maybe they've learned their lesson getting cornered by delusional rightwing blowhards.  

But every candidate on that stage has a leftist agenda.

What's that supposed to mean?     

Realistically, as much pleasure as you must have taken in that photo of the dead parent and child in the river this week, we can't let them die on the sidewalk outside a hospital.

Much as you relish the stories of the Americans murdered by illegal immigrants.

Touche'

But it's on Pete's website: 
  • Create a commission to propose reparations policies for Black Americans and close the racial wealth gap

Cincy's right about that - it'll go away... I hope.

It's going to be fun to watch the campaign. 

Yes it is. 


ATexasVol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2019, 01:24:57 PM »
What're you trying to say here, Texie?  That the technology is impossible?  Permanently beyond our innovative capabilities? 

Let's hope that's the dumbest thing you post today. 

You've already taken up more than your fair share of dumb posts in this thread alone.  You should be required to actually make sense and use logic for the next week.   

#1, there are an estimated 300 million guns owned by Americans today.   Are you going to retrofit this hypothetical technology to all those weapons?  

#2, I don't know about you, but the fingerprint technology on my iPhone doesn't work half the time.   I have to try several times before my screen unlocks.   Sometimes I have to enter my passcode because my phone needs to rebooted.   I have no intention of dying while I try to get my gun to shoot.   

It's an idea that is dumb beyond belief, which makes it no surprise that Bernie would propose it and you would think it's worthy.   

fuzzynavol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2019, 01:26:02 PM »
I suppose my "point" is too sophisticated for you, even though it's obvious.

That's not the only point you've made on the topic in this thread.  You also said this:

I'm not even sure the concept is valid in doing something useful.


fuzzynavol

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2019, 01:29:16 PM »

#1, there are an estimated 300 million guns owned by Americans today.  Are you going to retrofit this hypothetical technology to all those weapons? 

No.

#2, I don't know about you, but the fingerprint technology on my iPhone doesn't work half the time.

You're not supposed to your it immediately after picking your nose.

 I have to try several times before my screen unlocks.  Sometimes I have to enter my passcode because my phone needs to rebooted.  I have no intention of dying while I try to get my gun to shoot.

Maybe those precious seconds will give you time to come to your senses and not shoot one of your dogs for peeing in the rug.     

It's an idea that is dumb beyond belief, which makes it no surprise that Bernie would propose it and you would think it's worthy. 
 
It was Biden, and I'm just arguing it merits consideration.  


DunkingDan

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2019, 01:36:32 PM »

fuzzynavol

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« Reply #64 on: Today at 11:41:10 AM 



Smart guns today is an idiotic notion.  Maybe down the road, maybe, but the technology today is not reliable at all, and it's very expensive.

So is the "notion" idiotic, or is the technology not fully developed?  What is the $ value you put on life?

The so-called "Smart Gun Project" was concerned with developing technology for use by law enforcement officers. Gun control advocates, however, see "smart" gun technology as a way to force the price of guns beyond the budgets of many Americans. Indeed, Colt`s Manufacturing Company, which received $500,000 from the NIJ and spent millions of its own money to develop a "smart" gun prototype, estimates the technology would add $300 to $400 to the price of a gun.

Clearly, the "smart" guns issue has the potential to mesh with the anti-gun lobby`s agenda of banning affordable handguns and elevating the price of all others in order to reduce both the number of guns people can purchase and the number of people who can purchase guns. In November 1998, Handgun Control, Inc. announced support for legislation in New Jersey that would require that within three years all guns sold incorporate "smart" gun technology (which doesn`t exist in a production-ready form). HCI knows that if it can get a "smart" gun mandate passed anywhere, it can immediately start screaming to the press and pliable politicians about the supposed dangers posed by old technology (read: "dumb" guns). There will be calls to have such firearms destroyed or disabled or, at the very least, retrofitted with "smart" gun technology that many gun owners would be unable to afford.

New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial already has gone to court to penalize 15 manufactures and distributors, in essence, for not making guns "smarter." The suit alleges a gun manufacturer should make a gun that can only be fired by its owner. Mayor Morial, with the prodding of HCI lawyers, is unconcerned that the technology he seeks to punish gun makers for not using in the past has yet to come off the drawing board.

Thus far, such lawsuits have been unsuccessful. In a high-profile case decided in November 1998 (Dix v. Beretta U.S.A., 750681-9, Cal. Super. Ct., Alameda County), a California jury found the manufacturer was not responsible for an accidental shooting which occurred with one of its handguns. Plaintiffs, supported by HCI`s legal arm, had alleged that the handgun should have been manufactured with a device designed to prevent unauthorized users from pulling the trigger—one of the commonly suggested forms of "smart" gun technology. The jury, however, voted 9-3 and 10-2 against the questions alleging negligence by the manufacturer. The jury found that the only significant cause of the death was the negligence of the gun owner and the person who pointed the gun at the victim and pulled the trigger, mistakenly believing it was unloaded.

"Smart" Guns and Firearm Safety for Kids

In their call for "smart" gun technology as the answer to accidental shootings of children, anti-gun groups often grossly exaggerate the number of such shootings. They commonly make references to accidental shootings in one breath and allege in the next that there are 5,000 children killed with guns each year. However, the number of children killed in firearm accidents each year is less than 200. According to the latest figures from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 1996, 138 children died in gun accidents, compared to 3,015 in car crashes and 966 in drownings. Fatal gun accidents accounted for 2.2% of the accidental deaths for children aged 15 and younger. The annual number of fatal firearm accidents among children has dropped 75% since 1975 and is now the lowest ever recorded. Firearm accidents have also decreased among the general population due to the same reason they have declined among children: education.

Prominent in Mayor Morial`s complaint are the deaths of three New Orleans children accidently killed with guns since 1992, but the mayor ignores the real question, raised by Beretta, that must be answered—will "smart" guns save lives or cost lives?

John R. Lott, Jr., a University of Chicago law professor, correctly framed the "smart" gun issue in a National Review article (Dec. 21, 1998). Prof. Lott wrote: "The futuristic guns advocated in the New Orleans suit, such as guns activated by a radio signal from a wristband, are far from reliable and will cost $900 when they are finally available." "The cost", Lott says, "will fall far more heavily on law-abiding citizens than on criminals—decreasing the number of innocent people who could use guns to protect themselves." The debate should be over how many of the accidental child deaths will be avoided versus how will such rules affect people`s ability to defend themselves and their children? "But this is a debate," Lott says, "that the city, with good reason, deliberately ignores."


Let the Issue be Decided in the Marketplace

There is at least one splinter anti-gun group—the Violence Policy Center—which opposes "smart" guns because, however "smart" they may be, they would still be "guns." The VPC`s stated goal is to ban all handguns and says "smart guns would only be effective if owners disposed of all other firearms." The VPC fears "smart" gun technology will cause gun sales to increase, an idea perhaps buttressed by a 1996 survey conducted by the National Opinion Research Center which found that more than one-third of Americans said they would consider buying a "smart" gun.

With the possible exception of that one extremist group, no one believes that engineers should not experiment with ideas that have potentially beneficial uses. However, government should not require consumers to purchase products that they do not want or feel they do not need.

The jury is still out, and can be expected to remain so for a long time to come, on the merits of "smart" gun technology. There is, of course, no firearm in production that incorporates "smart" gun technology. "Smart" gun prototypes have not been tested for reliability and durability under conditions that officers would subject the firearm to in day-to-day use. And, thus far, "smart" gun research has been geared toward the narrow needs of law enforcement officers, not the many and diverse needs of the nation`s 60-65 million gun owners. Even if a "smart" gun could be developed for the police, it would almost assuredly not be something that every civilian gun owner would want.

In the meantime, it is certainly worth noting that the trend in law enforcement officers killed with their own firearms has been downward in the absence of "smart" gun technology. From a high of 19 officers in 1979 and 1981, there have been six per year, on average, during the 1990s, and four in 1996, the most recent year for which data have been reported by the FBI. The decline is primarily the result of significant improvements in officer training and tactics to deal with precisely this threat, together with officers` increased use of semi-automatic pistols (in place of revolvers), body armor (bullet-resistant vests) and improved holsters.

Overall, fatal firearms accidents are at an historic low. Their rate has declined 88% since the high in 1903 and 33% during the last decade. Fatal firearms accidents among children are also at an all-time low—down 75% since 1975. Today, fatal gun accidents account for only 1% of accidental deaths and only 0.05% of all deaths in the U.S.

This great progress has been made not because the government mandated how the firearms industry engineered its products or tried to dictate how Americans store their firearms in their homes. This safety success story is the direct result of voluntary firearms safety education, such as the training programs provided by NRA`s network of 46,000 certified instructors and coaches. And American children—more than 17 million youngsters in pre-K through 6th grade—are safer today because they have learned the message taught through the award-winning Eddie Eagle® Gun Safety Program.



For industry comment see Beretta Position Concerning "Smart Gun" Technology

President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

steve37777

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Re: Will you all be watching primary debate tonite with an open mind?
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2019, 05:02:41 PM »
I'm not sure smart guns are going to help dumb people....



highVOLtage

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