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Topic: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?

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Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2021, 01:38:07 PM »
I don't know what "too religious" might mean.  I merely note, again, we have a lot of denominations because of differences in opinions.

Why so many different interpretations of Revelation? | Psephizo

Approaching the Book of Revelation - Bellevue Baptist Church

Read in light of the whole book, it’s clear that “the time” is referring to the end times and the phrase “is near” reveals the end times are approaching. To be prepared for how Revelation flows as it speaks on the coming end times, here’s an outline of the book:
  • The Exalted Christ—Revelation 1
  • The Church of Jesus Christ—Revelation 2–3
  • The Rapture and the Saints in Heaven—Revelation 4–5
  • The Great Tribulation—Revelation 6–18
  • The Return of Christ—Revelation 19
  • The Millennial Reign of Christ—Revelation 20:1–6
  • The Final Judgement—Revelation 20:7–15
  • The New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem—Revelation 21–22


Volbrigade/oU

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2021, 02:33:31 PM »
Bellevue Baptist was pastored for many years by the late, great Adrian Rogers.

If you’re looking for a good, sound, basic overview of Revelation — you can’t go wrong with him.

Chuck Missler is an excellent resource for even more detail.

@VolRage 

my Dad used to say the same thing.  “There’s such a thing as being TOO religious, ya know.”

Don’t know if you’ve read any of my earlier posts, but as Missler liked to point out:  “Jesus Christ is the least religious person that ever lived.”

A provocative statement, to be sure. 

It’s important to understand that religion is invented by the Devil.  All religions are false — that’s why they all disagree. 

Christianity is not a religion.  It is a RELATIONSHIP.  “Justification” means “being aligned with”.  Like your margins — “justified” right or left…

When you accept the Risen Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you enter into a relationship with the power that created Heaven and Earth.  Before pagan religion was established at Babel — before, in fact, the Flood of Noah — Enoch “walked with God.”  He didn’t belong to the right church, or perform the proper rites and rituals.  He WALKED with God.  He was in relationship with Him.  And he did not see death.

“One day, Enoch walked with God so far, that God said ‘It’s closer to my house than it is yours.  Why don’t you just come on home with me?’”  ( ^ ;

Religion is man, reaching up to appease and curry favor with an unknowable, capricious God.

In Christ, God has reached down to man.  He has mercifully removed the barrier of sin that stands between God and man.

God set apart a people — the descendants of Abraham, the “Father of Faith” — from which he would manifest in the flesh, to accomplish this reconciliation between God and man.  And He imparted His Law (the Sinaitic Covenant — i.e., the Ten Commandments, ritual sacrifices, etc.) as a ruler over them, to “quarantine” them, if you will, against a sinful world. 

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, which no other man could do.  We share in that fulfillment when we accept Him as our redeemer.  The Law, which was there as a restrainer and guide, no longer applies.  We are free to live as, and in, a “new creation”, and to practice what Jesus said was the entirety of the Law:  “to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind”.  And to “love your neighbor as yourself.”

Someone once asked me what denomination I belonged to.  I replied “I’m a non-denominational Evangelical.”

“Oh,” he said.  “So you’re a Baptist.”


« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 03:35:53 PM by Volbrigade/oU »

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2021, 03:24:45 PM »
I'm sure if I read something from YOUR church,

Not from my church, 

church fathers - Bing




President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2021, 03:31:54 PM »
I don't know what "too religious" might mean.  I merely note, again, we have a lot of denominations because of differences in opinions.

Why so many different interpretations of Revelation? | Psephizo

Approaching the Book of Revelation - Bellevue Baptist Church

Read in light of the whole book, it’s clear that “the time” is referring to the end times and the phrase “is near” reveals the end times are approaching. To be prepared for how Revelation flows as it speaks on the coming end times, here’s an outline of the book:
  • The Exalted Christ—Revelation 1
  • The Church of Jesus Christ—Revelation 2–3
  • The Rapture and the Saints in Heaven—Revelation 4–5
  • The Great Tribulation—Revelation 6–18
  • The Return of Christ—Revelation 19
  • The Millennial Reign of Christ—Revelation 20:1–6
  • The Final Judgement—Revelation 20:7–15
  • The New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem—Revelation 21–22
You denoted different denomination because of the all the different church fathers earlier which was false

https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Orthodox+revelation+bible+study
https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Orthodox+revelation+bible+study
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2021, 03:33:35 PM »
I don't know what "too religious" might mean.  I merely note, again, we have a lot of denominations because of differences in opinions.

Why so many different interpretations of Revelation? | Psephizo

Approaching the Book of Revelation - Bellevue Baptist Church

Read in light of the whole book, it’s clear that “the time” is referring to the end times and the phrase “is near” reveals the end times are approaching. To be prepared for how Revelation flows as it speaks on the coming end times, here’s an outline of the book:
  • The Exalted Christ—Revelation 1
  • The Church of Jesus Christ—Revelation 2–3
  • The Rapture and the Saints in Heaven—Revelation 4–5
  • The Great Tribulation—Revelation 6–18
  • The Return of Christ—Revelation 19
  • The Millennial Reign of Christ—Revelation 20:1–6
  • The Final Judgement—Revelation 20:7–15
  • The New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem—Revelation 21–22
The Apocalypse of St. John, or the Book of Revelation, is the last book of the Bible, and in most traditions is believed to cover those events which surround the end of the world, and the Last Judgement.
"We must have humility when approaching Scripture. Even some of the Church's greatest and most philosophically sophisticated saints stated that some passages were difficult for them. We must therefore be prepared to admit that our interpretations may be wrong, submitting them to the judgment of the Church." —from the article on Hermeneutics

This article or section is a stub (i.e., in need of additional material). You can help OrthodoxWiki by expanding it.


Contents



History

According to Tradition, the Apocalypse was written by St. John the Theologian, one of the Twelve Apostles, while he was in exile on the island of Patmos towards the end of his life.
The book finally was accepted into the Canon after much dispute.


Methods of interpretation

There are a variety of ways to interpret the book of Revelation, and many of these methods overlap.
Some read the book of Revelation as entirely symbolic. This type of interpretation is often called Idealism, and "translates" the symbols found in the book as universal symbols depicting the clash between good and evil.
Others read Revelation as a book containing symbolism regarding events entirely contained in the past--in this school of interpretation, Revelation is about what has already happened, and not what will happen in the future. This is often called the Preterist (from Latin, meaning "Past") school of interpretation. In this school of thought, Revelation uses preexisting Jewish symbolism the depict and explain the immediate and pressing concerns of the author.
Still others read the book as a book of speculative prophecy, literally portraying the apocalyptic end of time in which the glorified Christ will come to earth and usher in Judgment Day. While not all people who adopt this Futurist method insist on interpreting every symbol as literally as possible, this is by far the most common interpretation in fundamentalist camps. Another method, similar in methodology, is the Historicist school, which identifies some of Revelation as occurring in the past and some as occurring in the future—often, this method applies the imagery of Revelation to major historical events, i.e., equating the plague of locusts with the spread of Islam throughout medieval Europe.
Another fairly recent and somewhat theologically liberal school of thought pays special attention to Revelation 19.10, in which an angel tells the author, "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ." In this light, some argue, Revelation is a depiction of the story of Jesus, using symbols related to Jesus and the Jewish traditions which he both followed and fulfilled. Typically, this school borrows heavily from the Preterist and Idealist schools, but sometimes from the Futurist and Historicist schools of interpretation as well.


Literary devices

Symbolism plays a key role in the book of Revelation, and is modeled after similar works, particularly the Book of Daniel, which seems to portray concrete events with highly-developed symbols. Portions of other Old Testament works follow this pattern, such as Ezekiel and Jeremiah. As much as 90% of Revelation's text is borrowed from previous Jewish texts, the Talmud, and is often reframed. Accordingly, most of the scenes and symbols used in Revelation utilize preexisting Jewish imagery, and often seem to represent Christian events from a Jewish perspective.
Parallel structure also plays a large part in Revelation as a work of literature. For example, the story of two witnesses in chapter 11, raised to life by the Spirit of God, strongly parallels the following story in chapter 12, in which symbols opposite the witnesses—the Dragon, specifically, and others by extension—are raised to life by an anti-spirit opposing God.
There are a number of possible explanations for both of these devices. Orthodox tradition identifies 85 AD as the time of Revelation's final creation, placing the author and his audience in a time of intense persecution under the Roman Emperor Domitian. Other scholars alternatively suggest the Neronian persecutions as the time of Revelation's creation. In either case, it appears as though Revelation was written during a historical period hostile to the message and methods of Christianity as a whole. It may be that Revelation's author both adopted his symbolic style and utilized a tightly-knit parallel structure to obscure the Christianity story enough to save it from destruction yet still communicate its central message. Only those already familiar with the Jewish symbolism from which he borrows so heavily will understand the original meanings of those symbols and comprehend the new message which he is trying to communicate.
Another alternative or additional possibility is that Revelation forces would-be Christian scholars to tackle its very intricate and complicated imagery, forcing them to delve into the Jewish history, tradition, and texts from which Christianity springs. This, too, fits the historical situation of the early Church, which moved further and further from its Jewish roots as Christianity became more and more Hellenized; no matter what school of thought one favors, a mastery of the orthodox Jewish texts is critical to a full understanding of the Revelator's message.


Common question: Pre- or post-millennialism

The view of the Orthodox Church can best be described as "amillenialist"; that is, holding to the teaching that the thousand years mentioned in the Apocalypse refers to the current age of the Church.

The Last Judgment

The Soul after Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose is an excellent reference for this.
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2021, 03:36:45 PM »
Why do so many denominations exist if not for differences in interpretation?

Is that not obvious?


DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2021, 03:49:37 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 05:24:30 PM
Quote
:ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity :ecomcity: title=ecomcity

Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 02:35:58 PM
Quote
Quote
If someone gathered all the "church fathers" and theological experts together to interpret Revelation, how many different versions would we get?

This is why we have so many denominations, various "church fathers" decided to view things differently and formed their own church, based on their opinions.

Many decades ago I was somewhat interested in eschatology and read a few books on it, they all had very different interpretations.  I concluded one could read into Revelation just about anything.  As for Easter etc., I think it's well accepted that some of the traditions were modified paganisms.

Eoster and so forth.


Why do you respond when you have no knowledge about that which you say?


Read and think for openers

church fathers - Bing



President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2021, 04:06:28 PM »
Bellevue Baptist was pastored for many years by the late, great Adrian Rogers.

If you’re looking for a good, sound, basic overview of Revelation — you can’t go wrong with him.

Chuck Missler is an excellent resource for even more detail.
I have this book by Rogers ''Unveiling the End Times in Our Time'', I have others by the Trib people as well. 
 
J Vernon McGee is another who gets it mostly right as well.

One thing he does not get is in the early days most Protestant religions were vey close to Orthodoxy, some still are, some are so far afield they are not even recognizable as Christian by their doctrine.  
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2021, 04:07:50 PM »
Well, for one thing, that's YOUR church's time line.  Oother churches would have very different time lines, and perhaps also include things like Arianism back in what is labeled "the undivided church". 

Posting the same time line over and over doesn't make it true, it is merely the opinion of one denomination.  Here is the time line from another denomination.  If post it over and over, does it make it true also?





The various conferences were needed to make decisions as to which way the "church" would go because early Christians had very difference interpretations, ideas that were more or less quashed.  They even argued over what to include in the Canon, and that schism still exists.  

Early Christian Heresies (ship.edu)

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2021, 04:11:04 PM »
And of course the ROMAN Catholics have THEIR time line, who is shocked by this?


DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2021, 04:36:14 PM »
Well, for one thing, that's YOUR church's time line.
Well Prof Dumas it is not
If you knew your Church History you would know that the Roman Catholic Church came about with the Great schism and left the Catholic Church (which is the Orthodox  Church whose doctrine has not changed) then Luther pasted those pesky little notices on the Roman Churches' door which wound up forming the protestant Church group.
That is even what was taught in the Baptist Seminary, the Episcopal Seminary among others, not to mention World History coarses way back in the 50's, 60's and 70's
Yes there has been a further drifting apart of the Roman Catholic Church and the Catholic (Orthodox) church since the Great Schism
If you knew your church history you would know that the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Coptics, The Assyrain CHurch The Orental Church, etc. split off as well (guess who never had any real contact with the Catholic (Orthodox) Church until recent times? Guess who still had the same doctrines/beliefs/etc. Common Sense should tell you why. 
Oh my where did the Greek and Russian Orthodox Church come in? The American Orthodox Church? 

I can find many more from many places 






You would also need to study some on the 7 councils and why they were held, who participate, etc. 
That would be getting pretty deep for you though, to much reading as it may hurt your head. You know knowledge filtering in 
I kept it elementary school level for you so you would understand, but you wanted to find something to argue about when you haven't even grasped 4th grade level world history
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2021, 04:41:49 PM »
All I see is spin from each denomination, not history.  Each will claims to be the REAL one.  It's hardly surprising.  So far as I know, the Church of Christ has it "right".  Their time line is as impressive as any of the others, why is it not the real one?

This all confirms my point, denominations came about because of differences of opinion.  And they each will claim to be THE ONE.


DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2021, 04:54:38 PM »
All I see is spin from each denomination, not history.  Each will claims to be the REAL one.  It's hardly surprising. 

Not it is not surprising as you really do not want to learn, you have not taken the time to learn anything on the most basic levels i.e. the simple fact that the Church Fathers lived and died before the Great Schism.

 So far as I know, the Church of Christ has it "right". 

Their time line is as impressive as any of the others, why is it not the real one?

You might want to read up on the Great Schism and what all caused it f
or openers, then the reason the gulf continues to widen.

This all confirms my point, denominations came about because of differences of opinion.  And they each will claim to be THE ONE.

That is not what you said, you said the difference of opinion of the Church Fathers and you have no clue as to who they are, when they lived or what they wrote. Likewise you have no idea of what the pesky guy wrote and posted on those doors and what it meant, nor what many who came after him strived for

I other words you are still full of shit and have no desire to learn anything

All you are wanting is to have argument.

Do I need to self report now?
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2021, 04:59:08 PM »
Well, the "church fathers" did have differences of opinion, obviously, and in some cases, they started their own branches.  It probably wasn't folks at the bottom doing this.  It was King Henry VIII in one case.  I use the term "church fathers" in a broad sense, folks who had influence and standing in the church.

Why do you think all these spits happened?  I'm sure you think YOUR denomination is the TRUE one.  They all do.

 

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