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Topic: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?

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Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2021, 09:24:48 AM »
" Calculus.  A system of mathematics which expresses and manipulates numerical properties established by God when he created time and space."

I gather from that you know about as much about calculus as you know about Coulomb's Law and astronomical motions.  

Do you believe in pre or post tribulation Rapture?  Do others believe differently?  Ergo, they have a different opinion?  Here is one guy's summary of FIVE rapture "opinions":

Reviewing Five Rapture Positions, Part 1 - Faith Baptist Bible College

Like gymvol, he's entitled to his opinion on such matters.  I'm sure YOU are certain YOU are 100% correct in YOUR interpretation, but others disagree obviously, and many are 100% certain THEY are correct.

When science is in disagreement about a proposition, they endeavor to test and theorize and check, because it's possible to do so.  Is light a wave or a practical?  Key question pre-1900, resolved over time by experiment and theory.  You can't do that with the Bible, or any religious belief, you can only argue and opine and debate.

I think it useful to respect the OPINIONS of others about such things while explaining WHY you disagree, without the disparagement.

If someone post the incorrect answer to some calculus problem, it can be corrected, it's NOT an opinion.  Here is an example:



You might take note that is primarily relates to manipulation of variables, not numbers.  The only numbers in this case are exponents (that's the small 2).

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2021, 11:58:23 AM »
The 6 Verses in Book of Revelation That Have Sparked Quite a Debate About Jesus’ Biblical Return – Faithwire

In the end, there are essentially three views about Christ’s return as it pertains to this “millennium” period. First, there’s Amillennialism, which essentially means that humans are currently in the millennium period, with Jesus reigning from heaven until his return. This, according to Piper, means “there is no future millennium that we are waiting for, because we are in it now.”
Then, there’s the Postmillennial view, which embraces the idea that the millennium is a real period of time that humanity hasn’t yet entered. Those who embrace this view believe that the period “will come just before Christ comes so that the gospel triumphs in the world: the world is Christianized, by and large, peace and righteousness hold sway in the world, and then, after that…Christ returns.”
And last but not least is the belief in Premillennialism, which holds that the millennium will happen after Jesus’ return and will include a period of Christ’s rule on Earth.



Revelations on Revelation – Harvard Gazette

Book Of Revelation | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS

Almost all New Testament scholars now take the view that Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian, sometime around 95-96 CE. He is the "beast from the sea" beyond doubt. What is not uniformly understood is how political oppression or persecution against the Christians of Asia Minor influenced the situation and, thus, how Revelation was responding to this situation. There are references to martyrdom and persecution in the Book of Revelation, but to what extent there was a real roundup of Christians going on is a matter of some debate. Here we may examine the question by looking at the views of several of the most notable recent scholars on Revelation.
Quote
a. The Traditional View of New Testament Scholarship.
The traditional view of Revelation, and of apocalyptic literature in general, is that it grew out of circumstances of persecution. So, Revelation is often compared to Daniel in this regard, since Daniel was written in direct response to the oppressive anti-Jewish measures of the Seleucid monarch, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, at the time of the Maccabean Revolt (167-164 BCE). Thus, scholars would point to Rev. 2.13, which refers to "Antipas, my witness, who was killed among you," in conjunction with the church at Pergamon. It also refers to the "two witnesses" who were killed and their bodies left in the streets of Jerusalem (Rev. 11.4-13), and there is the numberless crowd of saints "who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb," who suffered, and who dwell before the altar of heaven (Rev. 7.13-17). It must also be remembered that the words "witness" and its cognates "testify" and "testimony"(which appear some 19 times in Revelation) all come from the Greek word martyrs, from which we get "martyr." So it is traditionally assumed that there was a direct persecution of those Christians living in Asia Minor during the reign of Domitian, and that this corresponds to "John's" own exile and imprisonment on Patmos. This is the view maintained in two of the standard and very well-respected older commentaries on Revelation:
Quote
G.B. Caird, A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine. Harper New Testament Commentary Series. New York: Harper & Row, 1966.
J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation: Introduction, Translation, and Commentary. The Anchor Bible, vol. 38. Garden City: Doubleday, 1975.
Both Caird and Ford thus argue that the purpose of Revelation was to prepare and strengthen the Christians of Asia Minor, as adressed in the letters to the seven churches, so that they will remain faithful against the impending persecution. The remaining visions were then given to show them how the conflict would be played out, with the victory of God agains Satan, and thus encourage them to remain steadfastly on the side of Christ. However, beyond this general assumption of persecution these two works do not think that most of the language of these visions can be taken to pertain literally to precise events in Asia Minor.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:11:30 PM by Cincydawg »

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2021, 01:55:43 PM »
From notes on John

12:35, 36 The light refers to Christ (1:4–9; 8:12). His teaching here has several facets of meaning. First, He will be completing His public ministry shortly. Further, our lives are very limited; we have but a short time to repent and believe in Christ before death. Finally, the second coming of Christ is but a little while when compared to eternity. 12:40 According to St. John Chrysostom, Isaiah’s prophecy does not mean God causes spiritual blindness in people who would otherwise have been faithful. This is a figure of speech common to Scripture revealing God as giving people up to their own devices (as in Rom 1:24, 26). What is meant by He has blinded is that God has permitted their self-chosen blindness (compare Ex 8:15, 32 with Ex 10:20, 27). They did not become blind because God spoke through Isaiah, but rather Isaiah spoke because he foresaw their blindness.

12:47, 48 Christ does not judge with favoritism or partiality. He has spoken the words of life, words of love, forgiveness, repentance, virtue, and mercy. His words will be the unbending standard by which all people are judged on the last day.

----------------------



3:17, 18 While Christ came to save and not to condemn, man has free will. Thus, he can reject this gift, and he becomes condemned by his own rejection.

--------------

7:17 The simple desire to know and follow God’s will is the key to understanding it. Spiritual blindness comes from unwillingness to know God or to recognize His authority. St. John Chrysostom paraphrases Christ in this way: “Rid yourselves of wickedness: the anger, the envy, and the hatred which have arisen in your hearts, without provocation, against Me. Then you will have no difficulty in realizing that My words are actually those of God. As it is, these passions darken your understanding and distort sound judgment. If you remove these passions, you will no longer be afflicted in this way.”

-----------
From Mark

6:52 Knowing Christ is a matter of the heart, not merely the intellect. When our hearts are illumined by faith in God, they are open to receive His presence and grace. In the ascetic writings of the Church, the heart is known as “the seat of knowledge.”

-----------

13:5–23 See notes at Mt 24:3–31. The account of the end times is given here in a reverse parallel (or chiastic) form, in which the topics mentioned in the first half of the passage are repeated and amplified in reverse order in the second half. Thus, the passage both begins and ends with a warning to take heed about false christs (vv. 5, 23). The second warning is about wars (v. 7), while the second-to-last warning is about tribulation (v. 19). The third warning concerns being delivered up to councils (v. 9), while the third-to-last warning is also about being delivered up, this time by family members (v. 12). At the center of this discourse is the prophecy that the gospel must first be preached to all the nations (v. 10), which is at the heart of the apostolic ministry and mission of the Church (Mt 28:19, 20).
---------------

More latter

President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

gymvol

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2021, 06:52:09 PM »

Various denominations and made up sects have been predicting the end of days for centuries.

One of the more popular false predictions was from the Millerites or William Miller who actually had a precise date October 22, 1844 when Christ would return and the faithful would ascend to heaven.

Well we know by now that didn't happen just as those in the modern era of today don't have a clue either. They're just people thinking they can interpret Revelation when others can't.

When the Millers sect failed some of his followers went on to found another one. Ellen G White was a co-founder of SDA said to have had over 2000 visons. She was also hit in the head with a rock when she was a young girl.

Revelation is the book of Jesus opening the scrolls to give signs or warnings so people can prepare themselves but even he doesn't know when it ends. But there are a lot of people who think they're knowledgeable enough or arrogant enough to know when it might occur from their interpretation of the book of Revelation.

Mark 13:32

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

snip:

After he was essentially proven wrong, Miller lived for another five years, dying at his home in Hampton, New York, on December 20, 1849. His most devoted followers branched off and founded other denominations, including the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

https://www.thoughtco.com/millerites-definition-1773334
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

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Volbrigade/oU

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2021, 08:58:39 PM »
Cincy — please tell me you can see how patently absurd your attempted forced analogy between calculus and Revelation (or, let’s just say the Bible in general) is.  I’ve already obliterated it twice.  I’ll add to it some more, just because I’m a nice guy, and don’t want to leave you laboring in your own darkness.  If I can help it.  Which is not very likely…

Calculus — mathematics in general — is a wonderfully accurate and precise numerical instrument for measuring certain elements of God’s creation.  As pointed out, that is so because of the character of our reality, that He engineered.  He likes numbers.  He invented them.  It is… “reassuring”, for want of a better word… to know that 2 + 2 = 4.  Every time.  Everywhere in the universe (and don’t bother trying to throw a long pass with (e.g) Heisenberg’s Uncertainly Principle.  It is not empirically provable, in the sense that two rocks plus two more rocks gives you four rocks). 

By the way — you skipped over (no surprise) that sentence with the little squiggly line at the end (Whateverists typically do):  “where do the laws of mathematics exist?”

The thing is: Math is not very useful for telling a story.  Either narratively or poetically.  For that, God has given us the gift of symbolic language.  And He speaks to us in the same.

Now, while language and story and history and poetry are wonderful instruments for relating abstract information, meaning, shading, depth, and nuance:

they do not possess the characteristic of mathematical certainty that numbers do.

You understand this, right?  You see the fallacy of your analogy?  If you don’t, then I must ask your pardon and forgiveness.  Because I have been less than charitable to someone who has an intellectual disability.  Who manifestly can’t see what is axiomatic, and must be grasped intuitively.  And that, I would regret.  So please confirm that you concede the point.

People may legitimately disagree on the substance or MEANING of passages of Scripture.  E.g., Revelation.  Differing theories of interpretation (“hermeneutics”) will yield different views.

I ascribe to a PRECISE hermeneutic.  Which I believe supports the Pre-Trib Rapture, Pre-Millennial position (since you asked).  Dan and I have slight differences of opinion in that regard.  As we do with the literal 6-day Creation account.  I think I’m making progress with him, though.  ( ^ ;

Here’s the important thing:  Dan and I may disagree on certain secondary issues.  But we are in total agreement on the essential things — i.e., God entered His creation in the Person of Jesus Christ.  And died on a cross for the remission of sin.  And rose from the dead in confirmation of His identity.  And He will return to establish His eternal Kingdom, in the fullness of time.

And I am confident that Dan would assent to the late great DRS’ assessments regarding Creation and Eschatology. 

Creation:  “whether He took 6 days, or 16 billion years; He could’ve done it all in an instant, if He’d chosen to.”

End Times:  “When He comes, I go.”
____________

Gym:  I addressed some points with you in post #47, before Cincy papered it over with his vapid inanity.



Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2021, 11:01:14 AM »
Cincy — please tell me you can see how patently absurd your attempted forced analogy between calculus and Revelation (or, let’s just say the Bible in general) is.  I’ve already obliterated it twice.  I’ll add to it some more, just because I’m a nice guy, and don’t want to leave you laboring in your own darkness.  If I can help it.  Which is not very likely…
The simple point is that the former has discrete and correct answers.  The latter is based on OPINION.

I think opinions should be respected, generally speaking, in areas where interpretation of a vague document is at issue.  Clearly, there are multiple INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible and what it means.  Maybe some person is exactly right.  But you have varied authoritative OPINIONS.

You don't have that in calculus.

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2021, 11:13:02 AM »
People may legitimately disagree on the substance or MEANING of passages of Scripture.  E.g., Revelation.  Differing theories of interpretation (“hermeneutics”) will yield different views.

I ascribe to a PRECISE hermeneutic.  Which I believe supports the Pre-Trib Rapture, Pre-Millennial position (since you asked).  Dan and I have slight differences of opinion in that regard.  As we do with the literal 6-day Creation account.  I think I’m making progress with him, though.  ( ^ ;

Here’s the important thing:  Dan and I may disagree on certain secondary issues.  But we are in total agreement on the essential things — i.e., God entered His creation in the Person of Jesus Christ.  And died on a cross for the remission of sin.  And rose from the dead in confirmation of His identity.  And He will return to establish His eternal Kingdom, in the fullness of time.
You appear to show respect for Dan's OPINIONS, but not so much for gymvol's opinions.  Why is that?  Are they not both entitled to their interpretations?  Why not discuss the topic and simply state why you prefer you OPINION instead of excoriating gymvol for his BELIEFS?


gymvol

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2021, 02:02:34 PM »
You appear to show respect for Dan's OPINIONS, but not so much for gymvol's opinions.  Why is that?  Are they not both entitled to their interpretations?  Why not discuss the topic and simply state why you prefer you OPINION instead of excoriating gymvol for his BELIEFS?



It's simple his beliefs coincide with Dan's so birds of a feather burn together. They don't keep the 4th commandment of Gods Sabbath they keep the same Sunday sabbath established by Emperor Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church. They both also celebrate the same pagan holidays accepting them as Gods holy days.  But act holier than thou when it's pointed out along with viscously attacking those who do.  Just as their sinful brethren the democrats do to silence those who point out the truth about them.

Sinning is breaking of Gods laws or commandments and there is no such thing as just being a little sinner.

James 2

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.  11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.



If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

George S. Patton

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2021, 03:09:48 PM »
They have differences in interpretation (opinion) as well.  I don't see the point of claiming such absolute certainty of one's position on such matters, but to each his own.


Volbrigade/oU

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2021, 03:23:17 PM »
Your point is essentially that Revelation does not share the characteristic of mathematical certainty with a Calculus textbook.

That may be the blandest, most obvious, and therefore the most obtuse observation I’ve ever encountered.  Which makes it a matched set with the other observations you bless us with on here, to the tune of 37K and counting…


Quote
You appear to show respect for Dan's OPINIONS, but not so much for gymvol's opinions.


I don’t respect Gymbo’s opinions, because they do not conform with facts, reason, or truth.  Just as I don’t respect yours.  For the same reason.

I am more than happy to discuss either, or both, in a civil and reasonable matter.

But instead of that, Gym prefers to cast baseless accusations and insults — essentially accusing untold numbers of worshipping Christians of following a “perverted” religion, because they worship the Lord on the day of His resurrection.  Not only that, but he steadfastly refuses to state what it is he DOES believe, nor answer questions in that regard.  And he has steadily avoided my “undulating strata” and “polystrate fossil” questions (as have you.  You ever going to take a stab at the “where do the laws of math… physics, logic, gravity, etc… exist?”)

He is an intellectual coward (as are you).  And a first class hapless internet nutjob.  I cannot respect that.  He should pray that God will quarantine him in Heaven, to segregate him from the countless numbers of “perverse” Sunday-worshipping Christians who will be there.  ( ^ ;

As for you:  you routinely respond to sincere commentary with the same kneejerk two-sentence message, which reflects no cerebral activity, nor cognition of the matter at hand.  Essentially repeating over and over, like an algorithm — or a magpie — that everything is a matter of opinion (except math sums — whee.  Brilliant), and that it probably doesn’t matter anyway.  And that everything’s the same as it’s always been.

Scintillating stuff.  37K posts scintillating (yawn).

I do not “respect” opinions that are in error.  Much less so when they are intransigent, in the face of superior information.  But that is irrelevant.  I can enjoy a beer, or three, with folks whose opinions I neither share, nor respect.  As long as they have a sense of humor.

But my lack of respect extends well beyond your’s and Sunny Gym’s opinions.  I have no respect for either of YOU.  You are both near the top of the list of unpleasant message board denizens it has been my displeasure to encounter.

But, hey — we’re all damaged goods.  And we’re all subject to the redemption and regeneration afforded by the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Which is my only reason for posting here.  To share that message.  Repeatedly — because it actually is worth repeating.

I like this site.  I’ve been all over the internet.  People are the same everywhere.  There’s the saved and the lost.  The “saints and the ain’ts”.  And you can’t be sure which is which.  There’s pleasant and unpleasant folks in both camps. 

“Christian” forums tend to be the worst.  For reasons I won’t bother to explain.  This site has a good assortment of good ol’ fashioned red-meat football type guys.  One or two strong, informed Christians.  Who have slightly different views on secondary doctrines.  Mostly just “regular guys”.  Who post valuable information on important topics.  And as good a “humor” thread(s) as you’ll find anywhere.

And, it’s also got a couple of… well, you know…

“There’s one (or two) in every crowd.”

And “it don’t take all kinds.  But we sure got ‘em.”
;)


Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2021, 03:29:51 PM »
In my personal experience, folks who are the most certain they and only they are right on a complex and nuanced issue with myriad ways of looking at it tend to be wrong, arrogant and wrong.

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2021, 05:49:41 PM »
In my personal experience, folks who are the most certain they and only they are right on a complex and nuanced issue with myriad ways of looking at it tend to be wrong, arrogant and wrong.
Someone says ''nothing relevant or specific, as usual.''  
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2021, 06:18:20 PM »
Cincy — please tell me you can see how patently absurd your attempted forced analogy between calculus and Revelation (or, let’s just say the Bible in general) is.  I’ve already obliterated it twice.  I’ll add to it some more, just because I’m a nice guy, and don’t want to leave you laboring in your own darkness.  If I can help it.  Which is not very likely…



I ascribe to a PRECISE hermeneutic.  Which I believe supports the Pre-Trib Rapture, Pre-Millennial position (since you asked).  Dan and I have slight differences of opinion in that regard.  As we do with the literal 6-day Creation account.  I think I’m making progress with him, though.  ( ^ ;

Here’s the important thing:  Dan and I may disagree on certain secondary issues.  But we are in total agreement on the essential things — i.e., God entered His creation in the Person of Jesus Christ.  And died on a cross for the remission of sin.  And rose from the dead in confirmation of His identity.  And He will return to establish His eternal Kingdom, in the fullness of time.

You got me to thinking about a book I read a couple years back. It was by one of the leaders of the Campus Crusade for Christ many many moons ago. ( I searched for it and finally found it last night in my Logos library and that is no small feat as there are close to 4k books there and I had not tagged this one). Anyway he and others who had since graduated college and were members of some standing in many protestant Churches (preachers, diocese leaders at the same level as bishops. They were across many denominations ) began wondering if there was more to their faith than their denomination, what was true and what was not. They began a systematic search and it led them to Orthodoxy. They wound up being ordained in the Orthodox Church and were the foundation of the OCA ( Where as before you had the Russian, Greek and a  few other branch's of the Orthodox Church in America). many entire churches converted as well. The book also tells of journey to be able to start a separate branch of the Church here.

It was a interesting read and one I understood as I always found something lacking in the many denominations and non denominations I investigated/participated in. With that being said I might if our Church here folds ( the age of the parishioners with little new blood as most of the young people have left the area) and we are incorporated into one near by (45 miles away). Then we might go to the local Byzantine Catholic Church as it is the same as the Orthodox Church. (Note the Orthodox Church essentially contains all the different Orthodox Church's, the Coptic's among others).

I know the  Church you use to attend and as you may recall I went to it as well for awhile. It like some others are very similar in so many ways to the Orthodox Church in a large part of their doctrine, beliefs, etc.

I realize their is a major difference in the worship service as well as views of what leaders are called, etc. However it is my home. It is not for everyone. As I heard more than one pastor/priest/etc say over the years many denominations are so close but have enough differences to call different people to the fold, One talked about one day we would see people from many walks of life (this is not clear but was in reference to former life, their choice of looks, etc) in the pulpit as God would use them to reach out to new generations. However at the core we would all believe the same and accept Christ. I scoffed some at the time but I grasp what they were saying now


And I am confident that Dan would assent to the late great DRS’ assessments regarding Creation and Eschatology. 

Creation:  “whether He took 6 days, or 16 billion years; He could’ve done it all in an instant, if He’d chosen to.”

True

End Times:  “When He comes, I go.”

Amen
____________

Gym: I addressed some points with you in post #47,

He ignores it, post 46 and anything else with truth in it

before Cincy papered it over with his vapid inanity.

post 67 suns up a lot.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 07:49:15 PM by DunkingDan »
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Volbrigade/oU

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2021, 07:35:35 PM »

Quote
Quote
In my personal experience, folks who are the most certain they and only they are right on a complex and nuanced issue with myriad ways of looking at it tend to be wrong, arrogant and wrong.


Someone says ''nothing relevant or specific, as usual.''  


That’s all he ever does.  Just makes some bland, trite, cliched statement.  But he makes like it’s a pronouncement, like it’s some sort of profound declaration, an insight, from an oracle on high.  When it’s just irrelevant Captain Obvious type stuff.  Annoying, to be sure. 

But worse than annoying — it’s fun sucking.  Just takes the juice out of any discussion.  I can’t imagine what would motivate a person to compulsively participate in such empty behavior.  But — it’s not my business.  Nor my problem.

He does make an obvious point here, though.  Though it contributes nothing to the conversation.  But I had intended to mention, somewhere along the line, that if someone is not willing to say, in reference to their beliefs/opinions, something like “this is my opinion, based on conclusions I have arrived at, for the reasons I have stated.  DOESN’T MEAN I’M RIGHT, OF COURSE” —

then they shouldn’t be listened to.  Which is why I don’t to “listen” to Sunny Gym.  ( ^ ;

Everything I  put on here is with that implicit understanding.  I have said many times — to be fair to myself — that if someone can point out where I’m wrong; or provide a better explanation for our reality than orthodox Christianity (big or little “o” — the orthodoxy referred to by Chesterton in the book of the same title), in terms of coherence, consistency, cohesiveness, reason, rationality, science, and truth:

then I want to hear it.  I want to believe the truth.  And if what I believe is not true, if there’s something superior in terms of the qualities indicated:

then I’ll drop Christianity like a stone, and believe whatever that superior belief system states.

So far — no takers.  Not one competent attempt.  Across the entire bandwidth of the internet.

Because there is not one.

Dan — interesting points in your last message.  I intend to comment a little, later on…  
  



 

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