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Topic: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?

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DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2021, 05:33:50 PM »
Well, the "church fathers" did have differences of opinion, obviously, and in some cases, they started their own branches.

No they did not start their own branches, once again you have no clues as to who the Church fathers were, when they lived, died or what they wrote, etc. But you keep making false statements.

I gave you a link where you could do some reading and find out some very basic info


  I use the term "church fathers" in a broad sense,

No you misuse use the term completely

Why do you think all these spits happened?

I have some understanding as I studied history, it is not a simple answer

 I'm sure you think YOUR denomination is the TRUE one. 

Never said that, I do think it is the closest we will see this side of Heaven as it has not changed since the days it was founded (if you did some study you would find this to be true). The Roman Catholic Church has changed a lot. ( Yes the 7 Ecumenical Councils occurred and should be studied before discussing - note they all occurred before the Great Schism.)
If you have read some of my discussions in the past and some of Volbrigrade/Ou you will find I have said (paraphrasing here) that many of the man made churches came about in a effort to return to Orthodoxy, many are close (and yes most in the hierarchy of my Church will tell you the same). Also the Eucharist (Church Rite/Service) as we perform it is not for everyone. If it was not for some of the other denominational churches many would not be saved. Pastors adorn them (and even the Orthodox Church) who came from various backgrounds. In other words God allowed it in order to save the most people. Now there are some Churches and denominations out there that know Christ not. That does not mean some of their members don't.

You will also find if you read that Vol../Ou and I disagree on some things but we still get to the same point in the end. Some have been discussed on the board and some in PM's. They, IMO, are not worth arguing over.
If you read the post I made a couple hours ago that discusses the many ways Revelation is interpreted and there is nothing wrong with that as what was once was can be again and is as far as I can tell true with Revelation. That is why many times I preach over and over, you need a teacher who is well learned in many areas, you need a good study Bible with good notes, you need a good set of books from different authors, you need to look to the language, customs, history, etc. of the times. You need to ignore the verses but look to what is being said in the small framework and how it applies to the bigger picture, etc. Most of all you need to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior, strive for good works, etc
.
As a note the issues Gym has with Days was taught to me by a Baptist Minster, a Methodist Minster, a Church of Christ Minster and two separate Orthodox priest and was confirmed as well in doing some studies using my LOGOS software in which I can go back to the very basics if I really want to dig though all my resources (Note I have the new version now and have not learned how to get from  A-z like I knew how to in a earlier version I had- change is not always good).
Now I do not know how much more I can help you in this are with the time I am willing to give up. In part as I know you won't do the reading. I know all you want to do is argue and try to prove yourself right in the face and overwhelming evidence you are not, you are playing a game and I have a life and have no time for your or anyone else's BS nor the inclination to put up with it. If you were really interested you would have read some of the links provided and did some thinking. A few minutes from someone making a post to your response is by no means the amount of time needed to think. I have a life. I suggest you find one to besides being a internet disruptor 
 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 07:22:07 PM by DunkingDan »
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

VolRage

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2021, 06:43:54 PM »
I don't know what "too religious" might mean.  I merely note, again, we have a lot of denominations because of differences in opinions.
Too Religious is getting caught up in the traditions and beliefs of your own religion that you get too far away from God’s word. It’s easy to do. It’s how “wolves in sheep’s clothing” fool their flock. They stand at the pulpit and give false accounts of God’s word and the flock never reads the verses to verify. Shame on the flock for allowing themselves to be fooled.

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2021, 09:36:37 AM »
That makes sense, thanks for your explanation.  The thing I saw most "back in the day" was folks who viewed church as a "social/business venue".  They attended because they could make connections important to their business, and it was important to be a "church-goer" in just about any kind of business.  They attended "religiously" and glad handed and smiled and sucked up and the other 6.5 days lived another life entirely.

This is my take on Obama in that Wright church.  He was solely there to make political connections among the black community.  I really don't think he paid much attention to the sermons, or anything else.  If he attends any church today I'd be truly surprised.  

At any rate, now back to Revelation, and super long copy and paste posts.

gymvol

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2021, 10:17:15 AM »

That's a good question Why Study the Book of Revelation?   Why study it when you can't even understand it when it tells you Christ does the revealing and not John.

Dan and VB both are showing themselves to be what I've been saying they are.  By what they post we can see they put more faith in the word of other men than in the word of God which neither seem to be able to read and understand for themselves.

Dan keeps referring to the Book of Revelation as the Apocalypse of St. John when I have pointed it out and even when it plainly tell us in Revelation that Jesus is the Revelator not John who is only the messenger.

I'm going to post it one more time for Dan maybe he will stop posting his false teachings calling it the Apocalypse of John or the Revelation of St. John the Devine.  Chapter 5 tells us Christ is the Revelator and he opens the first seal in Chapter 6 to start the revealing.

John only wrote down what he saw in his vision.

Revelation 5:

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


Chapter 6:

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 10:23:19 AM by gymvol »
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

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DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2021, 10:23:42 AM »
If you paid attention you would have found it was a translation from another language and if you read below you will find the Book is called many things and by no means is the list complete.
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The Book of Revelation (also called the Apocalypse of John, Revelation to John or Revelation from Jesus Christ) is the final book of the New Testament, and consequently is also the final book of the Christian Bible. Its title is derived from the first word of the Koine Greek text: apokalypsis, meaning "unveiling" or "revelation." The Book of Revelation is the only apocalyptic book in the New Testament canon.[a] Thus, it occupies a central place in Christian eschatology.
The author names himself as "John" in the text, but his precise identity remains a point of academic debate. Second-century Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Melito (the bishop of Sardis), Clement of Alexandria, and the author of the Muratorian fragment identify John the Apostle as the "John" of Revelation.[1] Modern scholarship generally takes a different view,[2] with many considering that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet.[3] Some modern scholars characterize Revelation's author as a putative figure whom they call "John of Patmos". The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), which evidence tends to confirm.[4]
The book spans three literary genres: the epistolary, the apocalyptic, and the prophetic.[6] It begins with John, on the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea, addressing a letter to the "Seven Churches of Asia". He then describes a series of prophetic visions, including figures such as the Seven-Headed Dragon, the Serpent, and the Beast, which culminate in the Second Coming of Jesus.
The obscure and extravagant imagery has led to a wide variety of Christian interpretations. Historicist interpretations see Revelation as containing a broad view of history, whilst preterist interpretations treat Revelation as mostly referring to the events of the Apostolic Age (1st century), or, at the latest, the fall of the Roman Empire. Futurists, meanwhile, believe that Revelation describes future events, with the seven churches growing into the body/believers throughout the age, and a reemergence or continuous rule of a Roman/Graeco system with modern capabilities described by John in ways familiar to him, and idealist or symbolic interpretations consider that Revelation does not refer to actual people or events, but is an allegory of the spiritual path and the ongoing struggle between good and evil.
More https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
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The Apocalypse of St. John, or the Book of Revelation, is the last book of the Bible, and in most traditions is believed to cover those events which surround the end of the world, and the Last Judgement.

"We must have humility when approaching Scripture. Even some of the Church's greatest and most philosophically sophisticated saints stated that some passages were difficult for them. We must therefore be prepared to admit that our interpretations may be wrong, submitting them to the judgment of the Church." —from the article on Hermeneutics

« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 10:40:20 AM by DunkingDan »
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

gymvol

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2021, 10:45:42 AM »
If you paid attention you would have found it was a translation from another language and if you read below you will find the Book is called many things and by no means is the list complete.
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Yep you keep posting that explanation so why do you keep using it when you know it's wrong?  :021:
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

George S. Patton

DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2021, 11:34:30 AM »









Introduction


The Apocalypse of St. John

Sometimes, it seems to me, the Church is almost embarrassed that the Book of Revelation made it into the canon of Scripture. (Indeed, it almost didn’t make it, and its status as a late arrival is reflected in its absence from the Lectionary, which took shape before the Apocalypse secured its place in the canon.) That is, we are sometimes tempted to regard the Apocalypse as we do an eccentric and loud second cousin—interesting, but best kept quiet at social gatherings. We’re glad he’s in the extended family, but it’s best not to let him speak.
This ecclesiastical ambivalence to the Apocalypse was also discerned by such Orthodox writers as the Russian theologian Sergius Bulgakov. He contended that there was, in the Church, a continuing struggle against the Book of Revelation, whether secretly or openly, whether actively or passively. In his work The Apocalypse of John (published in 1948, four years after his death), Fr. Sergius suggested we have all become disillusioned and tired of waiting for the Second Coming, and “the fiery Christian hope” has given way “to a lukewarm certainty that through being in the church, we already possess all fullness and need no denouement.” In fact, he says, “We fear the Apocalypse and hide ourselves from it because it calls us to that last and awesome prayer Maranatha! ‘Even so, may the Lord come!’ … By this prayer, nothing halfway can be meant. Life will not be left unchanged.” In his understanding, we fear the Apocalypse because it challenges our complacency.
Though Fr. Sergius was perhaps being a bit hard on the Church, there is no doubt that the Apocalypse is indeed a challenge to our complacency. It puts the eternal issues of spiritual life and death right in our face (usually with extravagantly bizarre imagery) in a way that is hard to ignore.
But many people do manage to ignore it. Though certain people seem to specialize in the Apocalypse and use it as the prism through which to see everything in the Christian life (people in what Fr. Sergius characterized as “mystically minded and fanatical sects” who were “lacking in spiritual balance”), many Christians are a little reluctant to deal with the Apocalypse. The Gospels they like to read, and the Epistles of St. Paul they will read also. But they draw the line at the Book of Revelation. It is almost as if for them the New Testament canon ends just before it, with the Epistle of St. Jude.
Why is this? I do not think it is solely (or even mainly) because they fear the challenge to complacency. I think it is because they do not know how to read apocalyptic literature per se. They have lost both the ability to read it (or shall we say “decode it”) and also the taste for it. (Perhaps the taste for it left along with the ability to read it.)
If this is true, it would be a good thing to recover this ability. For by effectively bypassing the Apocalypse we forfeit a blessing. St. John, in the opening verses of the book, offers and pronounces a blessing on the one “who reads” and on those “who hear” the prophetic words (1:3). This blessing is our inheritance as Orthodox Christians. The Church, in her Spirit-led wisdom, included the Apocalypse in the New Testament canon (and not without some considerable struggle and thought). She must have had a good reason for doing so. The commentary that follows is offered in the hope that, as we prayerfully read the Apocalypse, we will discover what that reason was.


Author and Date

Few things are more contested in modern scholarship than the assertion that St. John, the Beloved Disciple and author of the Fourth Gospel, also wrote the Apocalypse. Certainly the Greek of the Fourth Gospel is much more polished than the Greek of the Apocalypse. Nonetheless, Tradition ascribes the work to St. John the Beloved Disciple with impressive consistency and antiquity.
St. Justin the Philosopher and Martyr (d. AD 166) ascribed the work to St. John in his Dialogue with Trypho (81:15), as did St. Irenaeus (d. AD 202) in his Against Heresies (5.26.1). Regarding the date of the work, St. Irenaeus, again in his Against Heresies (5.30.3), dates it “toward the end of Domitian’s reign” (i.e. before AD 96), when John was an old man.
What are we to make, however, of the differing quality of the Greek used? The differences are adequately accounted for if we suppose that John used an amanuensis or secretary for his Gospel (and for his three Epistles), who, according to the custom of the day, would have polished up John’s Greek. When John was sent into exile on Patmos, we may suppose that such secretarial help was not sent with him, so that the Apocalypse represents his own unretouched Greek. This would also account for the multitude of Hebraisms used throughout the work.
We therefore see no compelling reason to abandon the ancient patristic view regarding the authorship or the date of the Apocalypse.


The Purpose of the Apocalypse

The Apocalypse was given to the Church by our Lord as a part of His pastoral care for it. At the end of the first century, the Church was about to undergo its first major persecution—although the Christians in Rome in the mid-60s had already experienced a foretaste of it under the Emperor Nero. At the end of the first century, however, the persecution was about to begin in earnest and would continue, in differing measures and at different times and places, until the Coming of the Lord. Suffering was one of the characteristics of the Church, and the people of God had to be steeled and prepared for the trial.
The immediate trial came in the form of enforced emperor worship. As a way of unifying the empire, the emperor demanded that all citizens swear by his divinity. One had to simply burn a pinch of incense before an image of the emperor, assert “Caesar is Lord,” and offer sacrifice to the gods. The little ceremony did not mean that one actually believed in the divinity of the reigning emperor; it only signified one’s civic loyalty. By acknowledging Caesar as supreme, one could then get on with the business of life and continue to worship one’s own favored deities as one wished. (The gods could be important, in the Roman scheme of things, just not as important as Caesar.)
It was precisely this admission that the Christians could not make. Caesar could be important, and the Christians were loyal subjects. But they could never worship anyone other than God, nor give supreme place to any other. Caesar demanded that civic loyalty be the supreme loyalty, and this is just what the Christians could not admit. Thus the Church’s worship was forbidden, their faith branded a religio illicita (“illegal religion”), and the persecution begun.
The Emperor Domitian, in promoting this cult of emperor worship, made it a punishable offense to fail to offer the mandated worship. As with all persecutions of the Church, the clergy were the first to suffer, since they were the most prominent. St. John had already been exiled to Patmos. A few others had suffered martyrdom in recent memory (such as Antipas of Pergamum). Now the full brunt of state persecution was about to be felt by the poor Christian rank and file. They needed to be prepared for the onslaught, to be steeled to remain steadfast in the face of the imminent attack—an attack which would sweep away fathers, mothers, teens, and even young children. The Book of Revelation was addressed to a frightened people, to those who lived in fear of the policeman’s knock on their doors (or the ancient equivalent).
There were other challenges to the Church as well. Heretical movements (such as the “Nicolaitans”) preached an easy compromise and co-existence of Church and pagan state. This option was all the more tempting in the face of the coming persecution. Also, as always, there were the Jews, who were taking the opportunity of state hostility to express their own hatred of the “heretical” Christians. Everywhere on earth one looked, there were problems, obstacles, failures, disasters. Where was God in all this? The might of Rome looked all but invincible; its power, unchallengeable; its claims, unanswerable. The Christians, by contrast, were pathetic and powerless. Had God abandoned them?
The Apocalypse of St. John is God’s answer. He had not abandoned them. St. John was given a vision of heaven and of the might of God. Christ was not just the defeated, pathetic crucified carpenter Rome knew—He was the dazzling Lord of Glory, exalted, immortal, living in the midst of His churches. The vision of Christ in chapter 1 answers to the Church’s need to see their Lord as He is in glory. The Church was not just a marginalized and powerless group of slaves and poor. They were a kingdom, priests to God (1:6), part of an immense heavenly throng standing before the throne of God with the palms of victory in their triumphant hands. The vision of the Church of chapter 7 reveals her true dignity, answering the slanders of Rome.
There was more. The Apocalypse assured the Church that the course of history and its outcome lay not with Caesar, but with Christ. He is the Lamb, standing before the throne of God, receiving the scroll of the world’s glorification. He is the one who will open the scroll and guide the world to peace. As a prelude to this glory, though, judgments must come. War and tumult, famine and pestilence, martyrdom and the shaking of the powers of heaven, blood, fire, and vapor of smoke—all this must precede the End. The Church must indeed enter its time of trial, striving against the Enemy, the ancient Dragon, the beast from the abyss. Many will shed their blood for Him and win their crowns. But at the end, Rome will fall, the final persecution will end, and the Lord will return in glory to overthrow all His foes and reward His persevering people. Then will be glory for all His saints.
This is the purpose of the Apocalypse—the pastoral reassurance of the Church as it enters the eschatological struggle of this age. Tears must indeed come first. But at the end (to quote Julian of Norwich), “all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.” The servants of God shall see His Face and they shall reign to ages of ages (22:4–5).


The Apocalypse as Genre: True Vision or Literary Device?

The Apocalypse is, of course, a specific kind of literature, called by modern scholars “apocalyptic literature.” It is a peculiarly Jewish type of literature, written especially during times of conflict and stress. It flourished in the Jewish community from the second century BC to the first century AD. Extrabiblical examples of it include the Book of Enoch (mentioned in the Epistle of Jude) and 2 Esdras. It is characterized by a predominance of fantastic symbols and by a sense of the imminence of the coming Kingdom. Numerology abounds, as does a preoccupation with the coming judgments of God. It is aimed, not so much at the head or the heart, but at the nerves. It is a much more visceral genre than, for example, the prophecies of Isaiah—more direct and powerful, less finely nuanced.
Most Jewish apocalypses are pseudonymous—their authorship is ascribed to ancient worthies (such as Enoch) who received a vision and transmitted it secretly to the (then) present age. The ascribed ancient authorship is a part of the genre. The visions were not, of course, actually historically received by these ancient worthies—but the ascription of the writing to them was a way of setting the stage and lending to the message an air of authority. It was, in fact, a literary device.
But what about the Apocalypse of St. John? Did he actually receive such a vision? Did he see exactly what is written down, without any literary artistry, didactic purpose, or artful structuring? Was he simply transmitting his vision, like a person reporting the images seen on a television?
Opinion seems to be divided. Some scholars, acknowledging the indisputable fact that this is a species of apocalyptic literature and part of an obvious genre, say simply that John had no vision. The reporting of a vision was a recognized and received literary device, no more. Others say that biblical authority being what it is, if St. John says he had a vision, then he had a vision. These scholars would play down the apocalyptic elements in St. John’s work and accentuate the differences between this and other Jewish apocalyptic works.
I would offer the following.
The Apocalypse is unlike other apocalyptic literature in that it is not pseudonymous. Generally speaking, pseudonymous writing by Christians was opposed because of the importance of apostolic authority. To write a book under the name of Solomon was one thing, for that was just to claim that the work in question was wise. But to claim to be an apostle was something else, for that would be to claim an unquestioned authority bestowed by Christ only upon certain men. (Thus Tertullian reports that a well-meaning presbyter was deposed when he admitted to writing a work and pseudonymously claiming Pauline authorship for it.) That in itself sets the present Apocalypse somewhat apart from other works in the same genre.
Also, John was an apostle, which meant that his main task was to tell the truth about what he had seen about Christ. Historicity was paramount. That St. John’s text begins with historic events is made clear when he relates his exile to Patmos (1:9–10). That testimony continues without a break to his relating a theophanic vision of the Lord.
Further, John himself claims that his work is a prophecy (1:3; 22:6, 7, 18) and seems to regard the prophets of the Church as especially valuable (10:7; 16:6; 18:24), presumably because he considered himself to be one. This would indicate that the book was to be considered as a genuine vision, such as prophets received (such as in Acts 10:10f).
I would suggest therefore that John did indeed have a vision of the Lord, of His glory and coming judgments and of the triumph of the Kingdom of God. Like many visions of this kind, the reality was too great to be fully articulated in human words—one hears things that cannot be told, “unsayable sayings” (2 Cor. 12:4). I suggest that the present work is the attempted articulation of that vision, according to the recognized form and accepted literary conventions of the genre. As such, it contains all the literary structuring, artistic craftsmanship, and deliberate didactic purpose of that literature. It is a human work. But it is also an apostolic work, and as an apostle, John tells the truth, striving to convey to us the substance and power of what the Lord revealed to him for our sake.


The Apocalypse and the Fathers

The Apocalypse was revered and quoted by a number of Fathers, especially in the West. St. Justin the Philosopher quoted it, as did St. Irenaeus (as we have seen). St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis in the early second century, accepted it as canonical, as did Melito, Bishop of Sardis in about AD 175. The Roman Hippolytus (in the third century) quotes it repeatedly, as does Tertullian (in North Africa) about the same time. Clement of Alexandria quoted from it as apostolic. Victorinus (d. AD 304) wrote a commentary on it. St. Augustine of Hippo comments on it at length in his work, The City of God. In the East, however, the Apocalypse was not universally regarded as apostolic or canonical. Eusebius of Caesarea questioned its apostolic authorship. It was also questioned in the fourth century by St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, and Theodoret of Cyr.
Thus, one must exercise care in speaking about “the Fathers’ view of the Apocalypse,” since there was no unanimity about it, either about its interpretation or even about its canonicity. Some early writers (like Justin, Hippolytus, and Victorinus) interpreted its details literally, while later writers (like Augustine) did not. The temptation, yielded to by some, is to take the extant commentaries of a couple of Fathers (such as Victorinus in his Commentary on the Apocalypse, or Hippolytus in his Christ and Antichrist) and accept those as the authoritative patristic voice. It must be stressed that, strictly speaking, there is no single consistent patristic voice in interpreting details of the Book of Revelation, and modern Orthodox attempts to find such a voice are simply exercises in arbitrary selection of one patristic voice over others. The field of interpretation is more open than some would think (or like), and the insights of modern scholarship are not to be dismissed out of hand as “unpatristic.”
And speaking of modern scholarly insights, we must acknowledge that some of the Fathers seem to show little awareness of the kind of distinct literary genre with which they were dealing. To be sure, the Fathers are reliable guides for the basics of understanding this work: they all apply it to the Church and her struggle with anti-Christian powers of this age, and see the Second Coming as the final consummation. But the nuances of the text, and in particular the way one reads the genre of apocalyptic literature, seem to escape them. What are we to make of this?
The Fathers were mostly Gentiles. As such, they would have had little occasion to steep themselves in as Jewish a literary genre as the apocalyptic. Perhaps the only example of this genre they had studied was, in fact, the Book of Revelation.
The closest thing to it in their own Gentile culture was the Sibyl—an oracle who foretold the future in ambiguous, aphoristic speech. Lacking from the Sibylline literature were many basic apocalyptic features: the fantastic, symbolic animals; the concern for numerology; the visceral appeal to the nerves. The Sibylline oracles were not a truly adequate preparation for appreciating Jewish apocalyptic literature. But it was natural to view the Book of Revelation as if it were a Christian version of the Sibyl and to understand the text in a more literal, predictive way.
Although the Fathers may be of limited use in understanding all of the book’s Jewish apocalyptic nuances, they do give us a basic grasp of the book as having to do with the struggle between Christ and Satan, between His Holy Church and the persecuting powers of this age.


Farley, L. R. (2011). The Apocalypse of St. John: A Revelation of Love and Power (pp. 13–21). Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing.
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2021, 12:07:03 PM »
"Opinion seems to be divided. Some scholars, acknowledging the indisputable fact that this is a species of apocalyptic literature and part of an obvious genre, say simply that John had no vision. The reporting of a vision was a recognized and received literary device, no more. Others say that biblical authority being what it is, if St. John says he had a vision, then he had a vision. These scholars would play down the apocalyptic elements in St. John’s work and accentuate the differences between this and other Jewish apocalyptic works."

Yup.

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2021, 12:24:10 PM »
Church of Christ | American Protestantism | Britannica

The early history of this group is identical to that of the Disciples of Christ. They developed from various religious movements in the United States in the early 19th century, especially those led by Barton W. Stone in Kentucky and Thomas Campbell and Alexander Campbell in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. These men had all been Presbyterians. They pleaded for the Bible as the only standard of faith, without additional creeds, and for the unity of the people of God by the restoration of New Testament Christianity. Refusing affiliation with any sect, they called themselves simply Christians.

An example of my point about how church fathers split off and started a different denomination.

Understanding | Revelation | church of Christ (granbychurchofchrist.org)


Many denominations today have their own understanding of Revelation and it becomes painfully obvious rather quickly that they do not all agree. The real meaning of the Revelation was purposefully symbolic and hard to understand when it was written and it's obviously hard today in view of all the many interpretations of it from numerous writers of all times, especially in modern times where we see the emergence of the millennial beliefs and teachings.

What we need to take away from this study is that the Revelation was a message of hope, perseverance and triumph, written to a specific group of people at a specific time in history. The Revelation, being intended for them, was successfully understood by them. It was written in such a way that Jewish Christians of the first century familiar with the Old and New Testament scriptures would be able to understand its meaning.





Cincydawg

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DunkingDan

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #122 on: April 17, 2021, 01:57:08 PM »
As is normal our resident disruptor has nothing useful to say, but continues his childish trolling games by repeating himself over and over and over and over.......
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2021, 02:15:33 PM »
I thought the views of the Church of Christ in Revelation would be on topic.  They claim to be the ORIGINAL Christian church, and others are offshoots, or never weres.

I imagine that story sounds familiar.  One can find any number of interpretations of Revelation.  


Cincydawg

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2021, 03:12:56 PM »
 As well as intellectually inbred and brutally simplistic religious kooks who think they’re right in regard to their heretical cultish doctrines, and everybody else is wrong.
You might note I offer no interpretation, beyond noting how many others have differing ones.  It seems pointless to offer still another one, but I don't have one.

The folks who think they're right here are the ones starting the topic, and then avoiding the obvious.  You each can have YOUR interpretation based on YOUR denomination without deriding others like gymvol who have THEIR interpretation.  It's all opinion anyway.  Like what is your favorite color?  Can any answer be wrong?

But, perhaps volbrigade thinks HE has THE interpretation we should all heed.  It wouldn't be singular of course.

Volbrigade/oU

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Re: WHY STUDY THE BOOK OF REVELATION?
« Reply #125 on: April 17, 2021, 03:28:27 PM »
You might note I offer no interpretation, beyond noting how many others have differing ones.  It seems pointless to offer still another one, but I don't have one.

The folks who think they're right here are the ones starting the topic, and then avoiding the obvious.  You each can have YOUR interpretation based on YOUR denomination without deriding others like gymvol who have THEIR interpretation.  It's all opinion anyway.  Like what is your favorite color?  Can any answer be wrong?

But, perhaps volbrigade thinks HE has THE interpretation we should all heed.  It wouldn't be singular of course.
Huh…?  Wha…? 

Oh.  Sorry.  I fell asleep about a third of the way through…



 

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