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Topic: What does the 14th Amendment mean?

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agentorange

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What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« on: November 01, 2018, 03:27:00 PM »
Here is Section 1 for your reading pleasure.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 

Clearly is does not mean that everyone born in the USA is a citizen since it contains the qualifier line "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".  

The question for the board is who is excluded by that line?

It has been argued that it excludes ambassadors from other countries along with their families and excludes invading armies.  At first it excluded Native Americans but that changed in 1924 with an act of Congress.  Does it exclude illegal aliens / undocumented immigrants?  That group certainly does not consider themselves subject to the jurisdiction of the USA since the first act of entering was done against the laws of the USA.  What does the board consensus say on the matter?

Phantom101

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2018, 03:39:53 PM »
"Does it exclude illegal aliens / undocumented immigrants? YES That group certainly does not consider themselves subject to the jurisdiction of the USA since the first act of entering was done against the laws of the USA. "


katmai

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2018, 04:07:20 PM »
Here is Section 1 for your reading pleasure.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Clearly is does not mean that everyone born in the USA is a citizen since it contains the qualifier line "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".  

The question for the board is who is excluded by that line?

It has been argued that it excludes ambassadors from other countries along with their families and excludes invading armies.  At first it excluded Native Americans but that changed in 1924 with an act of Congress.  Does it exclude illegal aliens / undocumented immigrants?  That group certainly does not consider themselves subject to the jurisdiction of the USA since the first act of entering was done against the laws of the USA.  What does the board consensus say on the matter?
Illegal aliens are not excluded.  Illegal aliens may not follow all of the laws of the US, but that doesn't change the fact that they are subject to them.  

If you don't like the law, just try to get the Amendment changed to exclude illegals.  I would probably vote for it, but until then, talk of an Executive Order is pure political grandstanding.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 04:10:34 PM by katmai »

BrownCounty

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2018, 04:11:39 PM »

What separates "born" and "naturalized"?

BrownCounty

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2018, 04:14:49 PM »

I'm gonna be a straight-shooter on this.  To me, to get rid of anchor babies you have to get rid of the 14th amendment.

If we "interpret" the 14th to exclude babies of illegal aliens, then we are playing the same games the Left plays, and it's a slippery slope.

gymvol

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2018, 04:29:32 PM »
Under the 13th amendment slavery was abolished so the 14th amendment was passed so former slaves who were under the "jurisdiction" of the United states were now citizens the same as everyone else.

That was it's sole purpose to make citizens of former slaves in this country not to allow anyone and everyone to become citizens that came into the country having babies.

That's why we had Ellis Island that immigrants came through to be examined both mentally and physically to see if they would be allowed into the United States. If any were found to be unfit they were returned to their country of origin.

I suggest some of you read the history of it because those like Katmai have no idea about our history.


But it was decided long ago by people who were alive when the 14th Amendment passed so they would far better know than todays socialist what the 14th amendment meant and certainly more than all the shit house lawyers we have here.

I will post it one more time.


In the year 1873 the United States Attorney General ruled the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment to mean, which Justice Gray would recognize in Elk v. Wilkins years later:

Quote
Quote
The word “jurisdiction” must be understood to mean absolute and complete jurisdiction, such as the United States had over its citizens before the adoption of this amendment… Aliens, among whom are persons born here and naturalized abroad, dwelling or being in this country, are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States only to a limited extent. Political and military rights and duties do not pertain to them. (14 Op. Atty-Gen. 300.)

House Report No. 784, dated June 22, 1874, stated, “The United States have not recognized a double allegiance. By our law a citizen is bound to be ‘true and faithful’ alone to our government.” There is no way in the world anyone can claim “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” affirms the feudal common law doctrine of birth citizenship to aliens because such doctrine by operation creates a “double allegiance” between separate nations.

Aaron Sargent, a Representative from California during the Naturalization Act of 1870 debates said the Fourteenth Amendment’s citizenship clause was not a de-facto right for aliens to obtain citizenship. No one came forward to dispute this conclusion.

Perhaps because he was absolutely correct.
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

George S. Patton

roadvol

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2018, 05:00:28 PM »
The only way the question will be settled would be for Trump to give an Executive Order and of course it will be appealed and then let it work itself up to the Supreme Court.
The court will have to decide if an illegal alien's child would be subject to the 14th Amendment.
It can never be settled in Congress as it would take a 2/3's vote by the Senate and then ratified by the states. It would never get out of the Senate.

katmai

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2018, 05:16:10 PM »
Under the 13th amendment slavery was abolished so the 14th amendment was passed so former slaves who were under the "jurisdiction" of the United states were now citizens the same as everyone else.

That was it's sole purpose to make citizens of former slaves in this country not to allow anyone and everyone to become citizens that came into the country having babies.

That's why we had Ellis Island that immigrants came through to be examined both mentally and physically to see if they would be allowed into the United States. If any were found to be unfit they were returned to their country of origin.

I suggest some of you read the history of it because those like Katmai have no idea about our history.


But it was decided long ago by people who were alive when the 14th Amendment passed so they would far better know than todays socialist what the 14th amendment meant and certainly more than all the shit house lawyers we have here.

I will post it one more time.


In the year 1873 the United States Attorney General ruled the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment to mean, which Justice Gray would recognize in Elk v. Wilkins years later:

Quote
House Report No. 784, dated June 22, 1874, stated, “The United States have not recognized a double allegiance. By our law a citizen is bound to be ‘true and faithful’ alone to our government.” There is no way in the world anyone can claim “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” affirms the feudal common law doctrine of birth citizenship to aliens because such doctrine by operation creates a “double allegiance” between separate nations.

Aaron Sargent, a Representative from California during the Naturalization Act of 1870 debates said the Fourteenth Amendment’s citizenship clause was not a de-facto right for aliens to obtain citizenship. No one came forward to dispute this conclusion.

Perhaps because he was absolutely correct.
As I stated in the other thread, the precedent is US vs. Wong Kim Ark, where the two exceptions were defined as children of diplomats and children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation.  Elk vs. Wilkins only applied to members of Indian tribes, so your citing of that case is irrelevant.  

Phantom101

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 05:33:02 PM »
The only way the question will be settled would be for Trump to give an Executive Order and of course it will be appealed and then let it work itself up to the Supreme Court.
The court will have to decide if an illegal alien's child would be subject to the 14th Amendment.
It can never be settled in Congress as it would take a 2/3's vote by the Senate and then ratified by the states. It would never get out of the Senate.
Bingo..........(I believe that's the plan and it's the only way to settle this issue)

highVOLtage

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Re: What does the 14th Amendment mean?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2018, 07:02:43 PM »
As I stated in the other thread, the precedent is US vs. Wong Kim Ark, where the two exceptions were defined as children of diplomats and children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation.  Elk vs. Wilkins only applied to members of Indian tribes, so your citing of that case is irrelevant.  

Why are children of diplomats not subject to laws of the U.S.?

 

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