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Topic: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:

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MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2021, 01:51:13 PM »
That's a grossly over-blown pseudo-problem. 

Right now we have people protesting Wright's accidental shooting, as if we can get cops to stop being human beings capable of error.  9.5% of the annual deaths in the US are caused by medical error - far more than cops pulling the wrong weapon. 

If the left wants to protest something constructive to stop the government from killing its people, then it needs to protest citizens who refuse to cooperate with police.  If Wright hadn't pulled away and gotten in his car to try to drive off, he'd be alive today.  Wright's color, and the color of the cop are irrelevant. 

People are always going to fight cops, and cops are always going to kill citizens (most of whom deserve it).  These protests are a mockery of legitimate civil rights marches, and more about destructive hooliganism and social media posing than affecting positive social change. 

Thanks to advocates and defenders like you, who are causing me the embarrassment of having to side with conservatives in order to talk about it honestly. 
Well, I don't know of any rule that says you have to care about something. Still, saying the government killing a thousand people a year is just a whole lot of nothing and no one should care about it strikes me as pretty out there. I guess people said not to care about COVID, too, so who am I to tell people what to care about. In any event, while we are talking about Anglo-Saxons, they kill rough five people a year.

Further, the idea that we should be completely subservient to police and if we are not our lives are forfeit is not one I subscribe to. 

fuzzynavol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2021, 02:24:55 PM »
Still, saying the government killing a thousand people a year is just a whole lot of nothing and no one should care about it strikes me as pretty out there.
 
Characterizing cops killing people in the line of duty that are physically resisting their authority because they rightfully refuse to risk their own lives (which describes the vast majority of the killings) as "the government killing people" tells me that you must know you don't have a leg to stand on.  

I guess people said not to care about COVID, too, so who am I to tell people what to care about.
 
Shouldn't your compassion also extend to cops?  Shouldn't you care about the truth?  Do you support the protests for Wright (the man who was resisting arrest and accidentally shot?)?  

In any event, while we are talking about Anglo-Saxons, they kill rough five people a year.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here - you lost me.  

Further, the idea that we should be completely subservient to police
 
What a gross, hyperbolic, and desperate mischaracterization.  Do you think the police should have the authority to intervene when crimes are being committed?  Do you believe we should authorize people to enforce laws?  

and if we are not our lives are forfeit is not one I subscribe to.

Do you think a police officer should wait until the bullet is in the air headed for them before they should be allowed to react?

Come on, Sammy.   

MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2021, 05:18:37 PM »

Quote
Characterizing cops killing people in the line of duty that are physically resisting their authority because they rightfully refuse to risk their own lives (which describes the vast majority of the killings) as "the government killing people" tells me that you must know you don't have a leg to stand on.  
I proudly have two legs to stand on. Your entire premise is that cops killing people should be excused because if someone ignores a cop's authority they deserve to die. This is not something I agree with and I am quite proud of that. 



Quote
Shouldn't your compassion also extend to cops?  Shouldn't you care about the truth?  Do you support the protests for Wright (the man who was resisting arrest and accidentally shot?)?  
I actually have a lot of sympathy for police. It's a difficult job and they are expected to be able to respond to almost any situation you can think of. I don't generally support criminal charges of police for split second decisions. However, there are a tremendous number of systems in place that protect the police at the expense of people, and nearly every effort to change how policing works is met with floppy wristed calls we should support the police at all costs no matter what. We can't even get an accounting on how many people the police shoot, yet this is excused as some sort of cost of the job. It's not.



Quote
I have no idea what you're trying to say here - you lost me.  
Jgvol said I didn't like Anglo-Saxons. Which may be true, but England is doing a much better job on not killing their people compared to us, so I must give the Anglo-Saxons props.



Quote
What a gross, hyperbolic, and desperate mischaracterization.  Do you think the police should have the authority to intervene when crimes are being committed?  Do you believe we should authorize people to enforce laws?  
Well, yes. But this isn't unlimited authority. The idea that a cop feels scared is itself a license to kill is not something that should be supported. It is incredibly sad that in this Daunte Wright killing is that the cop would have been much better off saying she killed him on purpose and claim she suspected he had a weapon. That is more or less a get out of jail free card, while saying she accidentally shot him got her a felony. That's the state of our police accountability these days, and it is rotten. So don't just say it's gross and hyberbolic - it is exactly what you said.  If you can excuse a thousand killings, the vast majority of which you know nothing about, just because the cops told you they were "good shoots," then what limits are you placing on the police?

MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2021, 05:36:24 PM »
BTW how the cops initially described the killing of George Floyd


fuzzynavol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2021, 05:50:24 PM »
Your entire premise is that cops killing people should be excused
 
Only when justified, which is usually.

because if someone ignores a cop's authority they deserve to die.
 
If they ignore a cop's authority and a cop has reason to suspect his life is endangered, if they end up dead then the cop doesn't deserve to be held accountable.  

This is not something I agree with and I am quite proud of that.

You're not being fair to my position, and for that you should be ashamed.  

I actually have a lot of sympathy for police. It's a difficult job and they are expected to be able to respond to almost any situation you can think of. I don't generally support criminal charges of police for split second decisions.
 
Good - common ground.

However, there are a tremendous number of systems in place that protect the police at the expense of people, and nearly every effort to change how policing works is met with floppy wristed calls we should support the police at all costs no matter what.
 
That's a different subject.

We can't even get an accounting on how many people the police shoot, yet this is excused as some sort of cost of the job. It's not.

Of course we can - you don't know the facts here.  

Jgvol said I didn't like Anglo-Saxons. Which may be true, but England is doing a much better job on not killing their people compared to us, so I must give the Anglo-Saxons props.

Gotcha.  I'm Slavic so I don't have a dog in that fight.  

Well, yes. But this isn't unlimited authority. The idea that a cop feels scared is itself a license to kill is not something that should be supported.
 
Of course not, but why the straw man?  Seemingly every situation inciting riots involves a situation where the cop's fear is warranted.  Guy fights cop, is impervious to taser, runs around car, reaches inside, gets shot, people riot.  

It's a sham.  

It is incredibly sad that in this Daunte Wright killing is that the cop would have been much better off saying she killed him on purpose and claim she suspected he had a weapon.
 
Well sorry, she was honest.  

That is more or less a get out of jail free card, while saying she accidentally shot him got her a felony.
 
She doesn't deserve one.

That's the state of our police accountability these days, and it is rotten.
 
They're far from perfect and I'm sure there are reforms worthy of consideration.  They should not be based on the false premise that our criminal justice institutions are murderous racists.  

So don't just say it's gross and hyberbolic - it is exactly what you said.

You weren't talking about reforms, you were talking about "complete subservience or we forfeit our lives."

If you can excuse a thousand killings

A thousand?

the vast majority of which you know nothing about

We're talking about ones that we do know about that are inspiring unwarranted and counterproductive so-called "protests."  We can have video footage showing the justification of the shooting, but if the "victim" is black, it's perceived as justification for rioting.  We need voices of reason on the left to stand up to this travesty.  

just because the cops told you they were "good shoots," then what limits are you placing on the police?

You've moved the goalposts so far off into the distance I can barely see them anymore.  I'm in favor of body cameras and investigating all police shootings.  In the majority of controversial police killings that have inspired riots, I would sooner give the cop a medal than prosecute them for misconduct.  


DunkingDan

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2021, 06:28:35 PM »
May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'ONE OF THE MOST CONDESCENDING, MISLEADING UNDERPERFORMING, One Conservative Angry VILE EXCUSES FOR-A POLITICIAN IN THE HISTORY ÃF MANKIND.'
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2021, 08:17:42 PM »

Quote
You've moved the goalposts so far off into the distance I can barely see them anymore.
I'm not moving any goalposts. You said you had to be honest about the topic. Well, honestly, if you excuse the killings, then what is the need for any reform?

fuzzynavol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2021, 08:46:55 PM »
I'm not moving any goalposts. You said you had to be honest about the topic. Well, honestly, if you excuse the killings, then what is the need for any reform?
I didn't excuse the Floyd killing.  

You're not addressing the truly salient counter-points to your position.  

harvestalvol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2021, 10:42:03 PM »
I'm not moving any goalposts. You said you had to be honest about the topic. Well, honestly, if you excuse the killings, then what is the need for any reform?

Didn't you excuse the killing of Ashli Babbitt? You said the unnamed cop could have killed more and rightfully so?

HK_Vol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2021, 02:14:14 AM »
Gotta protect their own....no surprise...


https://twitter.com/MZHemingway/status/1384624837826592773

HK_Vol

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2021, 02:43:52 AM »
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fuzzynavol

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MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2021, 10:02:32 PM »
I didn't excuse the Floyd killing. 

You're not addressing the truly salient counter-points to your position. 
What salient points? 

MaximumSam

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Re: We are so blessed go have leaders like Maxine Waters:
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2021, 10:04:20 PM »
Didn't you excuse the killing of Ashli Babbitt? You said the unnamed cop could have killed more and rightfully so?
No, though I may have been clumsy about that. My point was that as the standards exist now, the killing of Ashley Babbitt isn't particularly noteworthy as a cop on citizen killing. That is different than whether it should be excused or a name and explanation should be given.

 

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