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Topic: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?

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DunkingDan

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2020, 02:28:03 PM »
You’re close, Zen.  There is only one reason (just one more than “no reason”):  it’s true.

But, you’re right — truth is no “reason” at all, to the modern and post-modern secularist.

Hey — didja ever come up with “something better” (post #42 on the “if you only had an hour…” thread)?
 In reading his post (Something I rarely do)  I have to disagree about how close he is. There is so much history/archaeology/science he ignores. But that is his right. 

 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

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Babel vs. Pentecost
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2020, 02:29:54 PM »

@Volbrigade/oU @Drew4UTk  I think this answers some of at least ones questions if they will read it with a open heart/mind. At least in part. It is a excellent example of how to use OT events in Christian teaching as were Dr. Geisler's. 


An Orthodox priest, who was involved in ecumenical activities, became acquainted with some Lutheran pastors and He invited them to a Holy Friday service. Three of them came but the church was already full. The priest noticed them standing in the back and wanted to show good hospitality. So, he whispered to one of the acolytes, ?Get three chairs for our Lutheran pastor friends.? The altar boy didn?t quite hear, so the priest said it again a bit louder, pointing towards the back of the church, ?Three chairs for the Lutherans.? Dutifully, the boy went out of the altar and stepped to the front of the congregation and loudly proclaimed to everyone, ?Three cheers for the Lutherans.?
  A golden anniversary party was thrown for an elderly couple. The husband was moved by the occasion and wanted to tell his wife how he felt about her. She was hard of hearing however and often misunderstood what he had to say. With many family members and friends gathered around, he toasted her: ?My dear wife, after fifty years I have found you tried and true!? Everyone smiled with approval but his wife said, ?Eh?? He repeated in a louder voice, ?After fifty years I have found you tried and true!? His wife harrumphed and shot back, ?Well, let me tell you something?after fifty years I?m tired of you too!?
  These two stories underline the importance of clear communication and how good intentions can go bad with mis-communication. Today is the great Feast of Pentecost on which we commemorate the descent of God?s Holy Spirit upon the Apostles. The Epistle reading from the Book of Acts (2:1-11) recounts the event itself, how the disciples were gathered together in one place (v.1) and a rush of violent wind came and filled the entire house in which they were sitting (v.2). Divided tongues of fire appeared and rested upon each one of them (v.3) as they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages (v.4). The icon in the narthex depicts this exactly.
  The event of Pentecost ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven should remind us of another earlier event that we read about in Genesis. Listen to it.
1Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3Then they said to one another, ?Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.? They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4And they said, ?Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.? 5But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6And the Lord said, ?Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another?s speech.? 8So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9 The Tower of Babel)
  The event is so well know in history that we now use in the word ?babel? to mean a confused mixture of sounds or voices; a scene of noise and confusion.? What are the similarities and differences between the Tower of Babel event and Pentecost? One obvious similarity is that God bestowed different tongues of languages upon the people involved. But the huge and important difference is this: with the Tower of Babel event God intervened to cause miscommunication where at Pentecost the various languages are meant to facilitate communication. How so? Well, all the disciples/apostles were Galileans (v.7) and had their own language or dialect. Yet, the people who came to Jerusalem for the ancient feast of Pentecost, which celebrated eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles, the harvest of first fruits (Ex.23:16) and Moses striking the rock in the wilderness (Ex.17:1-7), were from different countries and regions (v.9-10) and thus spoke different languages/dialects. So, God enables the Apostles, with the fiery gift of tongues to speak in the languages of the Parthia, Medes, Elamite, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phyrgia, Pamphylia, Egypt, Libya, Rome, Crete and Arabia. Why? So these people could hear the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ, the preaching of God?s Kingdom, repentance and forgiveness of sins. These people say in the last verse of the Epistle ?we hear them speaking about God?s deeds of power? (v.11).
  Unlike Pentecost, the different languages given by God at the Tower of Babel event were meant to hinder communication so they could not finish building the tower. Why? Was God afraid of their power or what they could do if they worked together? No, it was to defeat their pride which just like He defeated the pride of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The people of Babel wanted to be like God but without God or apart from Him. So, He humbles them to save them. And He will do this time and time again to succeeding generations up to and beyond our own.
  With the advent of reinforced steel, in the last 100 years mankind has been able to build the highest skyscrapers in history and each country and/or corporation tries to outdo the previous one. Are we really that different than the ancient people of Babel trying to make a name for ourselves? Each one of us, at various times, has built a skyscraper within our heart to stand above and look down on everyone else. But you know what they say, ?The higher you go, the greater the fall.? One of the lessons for us today is humility. If we want to acquire the Spirit of God, and the Saints agree that this should be one of our main goals in life, we must be humble. This is why we kneel as we read the special prayers of Pentecost. This is why daily prayer and weekly worship are so important, because they are actions of humility before God in which we express our utter dependence upon Him. And the Sacrament of Penance is one of the main ways to tear down our skyscrapers so that God may build/construct us in His image and likeness, not the other way around.
  In conclusion, let us hear again the words of the Kontakion of Pentecost:
Kontakion (Plagal Tone Four)
When the Most High came down and confounded tongues of men at Babel, He divided the nations. When He dispensed the tongues of fire, He called all to unity, and with one voice we glorify the Most Holy Spirit.
  This same Spirit, which descends upon us at our Chrismation, which descends upon us at every Divine Liturgy, is also calling us to unity. Division and divisiveness are not qualities and characteristics of the Holy Spirit. Dividedness is the result of demonic spirits, stirring things up because of the human passion of pride. Let us come together in humility to have one voice, glorifying the God the Holy Spirit. Amen!
http://www.stgeorgegoc.org/pastors-corner/fr-ricks-sermons/babel-vs-pentecost

President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

ZenMode

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2020, 03:07:28 PM »
You’re close, Zen.  There is only one reason (just one more than “no reason”):  it’s true.

But, you’re right — truth is no “reason” at all, to the modern and post-modern secularist.

Hey — didja ever come up with “something better” (post #42 on the “if you only had an hour…” thread)?
But, you’re right — truth is no “reason” at all, to the modern and post-modern secularist.

Correct.  If you don't already believe in the god of your religion, and the associated scripture, there's no objective reason to believe.

Hey — didja ever come up with “something better” (post #42 on the “if you only had an hour…” thread)?Right... if you don't already

As a secularist, I'm more inclined to say "I don't know" or "Science can't explain it yet" than I am to assign responsibility to a supernaturla being for which there is no evidence of existence.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 03:14:03 PM by ZenMode »

ZenMode

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2020, 03:12:06 PM »
In response to DunkingDan:

There is plenty of historical evidence to support the existence of most people and most locations referenced in the Bible.  That doesn't change my opinion of the Christian god any more than the existence of Tom Cruise would change my mind of the validity of Scientology.

Volbrigade/oU

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2020, 05:06:15 PM »
But, you’re right — truth is no “reason” at all, to the modern and post-modern secularist.

Correct.  If you don't already believe in the god of your religion, and the associated scripture, there's no objective reason to believe.

Hey — didja ever come up with “something better” (post #42 on the “if you only had an hour…” thread)?Right... if you don't already

As a secularist, I'm more inclined to say "I don't know" or "Science can't explain it yet" than I am to assign responsibility to a supernaturla being for which there is no evidence of existence.
All due respect, sir — and no offense intended —

but what you’re saying is:  you ain’t got squat.

But if you’re happy with that — then I am, too.  I guess…

Just keep in your back pocket:  if you ever change your mind, and come to the realization “yeah.  There’s got to be a God.  All this didn’t just happen.”

Then just keep in mind:  God loves you.  The creator of time, space, and matter/energy wants to have a personal relationship with you.

Cincydawg

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2020, 05:11:54 PM »
The theory that all this was created by a Creator is logical, if unprovable.  The nature of said Creator would be more obscure, if one accepts that concept.

A LOT of things are indeed random, and all this could be another example, hard as that is to believe.  A lot of things apparently true are hard to believe, at first.

We all want to find meaning in life, and the concept that at the core there is no meaning is rather depressing.

Volbrigade/oU

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2020, 05:13:00 PM »
It’s funny, drew ( @Drew4UTk ) — I’m reading through your post, nodding and smiling…. and a verse popped into my head (John 1:47):

//Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”//

Meaning:  I like the way you think.

It’s perplexing how many people are content with a brutally simplistic view of our shared reality, that has been shoveled into their head since they gained consciousness, and which they just passively accept.

“Somehow the universe exploded into existence.  Somehow it organized itself.  Somehow matter became alive.  Somehow it kept getting more and more complex.  Somehow it began to think.  For some reason, it turned into ‘me’.  The pattern of matter that is ‘me’ will be conscious for awhile.  And then it will disassociate forever.  And then someday the universe will suffer a ‘“heat death”, all heat having flown to cold, and no more work can be done’.  And that’s it.  And what difference does any of it make?”

That is, if they even think it through that far.

And then they turn around and call themselves “free thinkers” and “open minded”, when their thinking is tightly constrained within the most narrow of parameters. 

No wonder this is the age of nihilism. 

A lot of folks — e.g., Zen — don’t want to accept that there is a sphere of totality, of which our limited space-time reality is but a subset.  That’s because, presumably, they have never encountered an incident wherein that extra-dimensional reality has intervened into ours.

But even that’s questionable. 

I started a thread on the old board, along the lines of “anything really weird (as in ‘supernatural’) ever happen to you?”

My premise, based on late-night beer drinking with friends over the years, is that almost everyone has a story of “that time when that weird thing happened, that I can’t explain…”.  Ghost stories and the like.  Often, it’s something that occurred when they were children.  And as adults, they tend to have forgotten.  Or it’s like “did that really happen?”

I’ve got several, myself.

But even beyond that:  it could be argued that we engage in the supernatural every day.  The “Delta Factor” of language, as explained by the late great Walker Percy, opens the door to a realm beyond the materialists’ endless chain of cause-and-effect.  Someone speaks — using puffs of air — or writes, using squiggly little symbols:  and someone else understands, conceptually.  But where does this “understanding” take place?  In the machinery of the brain?  Or somewhere else?  In the “soul”, perhaps?  I read about an account of someone growing up in China, or in the Middle Ages; and I “see” what they’re writing about.  That’s not simple “cause and effect”.  Something new has entered the world.  A new thought.  An understanding.  Where did it come from?  It’s not on the piece of paper or the screen.  It’s not in the squiggles.

And then you remember that Jesus is the “Word” of God.  The full expression of what He has to say.

The point:  it’s just dense and mysterious, that’s all.  Convoluted, layered, mysteries upon mysteries.  I feel sorry for those that have been deceived into accepting an impoverished view of things.  No wonder so many of them want to burn things down.  What a disappointment this tinker-toy, cause-and-effect, Godless reality is. 

Zen says there is “no reason” to accept the supernatural. 

But there’s every reason to.  Physicists will tell you that 10 dimensions are necessary, just to make our measurable reality possible.  Are those theoretical extra 6 dimensions “natural”?

If you can accept Genesis 1:1, there is no reason not to accept Biblical miracles.  And if you can’t accept Genesis 1:1, you’re left with precisely “nothing”.

Drew, I couldn’t agree with you more.  And I think you are in tune with the times, and with what’s going on.  All the threads are being tightened, and the picture that was heretofore hard to discern in the tapestry is getting clearer and clearer.

It’s revealing some very strange things.  Extra-dimensional actors are making their presence felt in bold new ways.  Check into some of the theories about the origins and purpose of CERN, where men are fiddling with fundamental aspects of reality, at the subatomic level.

Investigate “Transhumanism”.  Consider the implications of fully functioning quantum computing, A.I., 5 and then 6 G.  And remember the deranged ape into whose hands these powers will reside.  And the spiritual enemy who deceives and controls him.

And think about when the following announcement is made:

"They’re here.  They’re real.  They've been here all along.  They “seeded” us.  All of those ancient religions?  Those demi-gods — Zeus, Odin, Hercules, Atlas, etc.?  That’s them.  That Jewish myth was an attempt to cover up the truth.  Humanity has now arrived at the point where the truth can be revealed.  The myth is dead.  Time for reality.  Ladies and gentlemen:  introducing…"

That’s a much better “hypothetical”, fuzz.  Only it’s probably not hypothetical. 

Deception.  Strong delusion, indeed.

“As in the days of Noah”, indeed…


Cincydawg

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2020, 05:16:56 PM »
The above is, to me, rather fantastic thinking to which I do not subscribe, at all.  

But I'm fine if others do.


ZenMode

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2020, 06:13:21 PM »
All due respect, sir — and no offense intended —

but what you’re saying is:  you ain’t got squat.

There are theories but, unlike iron age man who generated elaborate stories to explain the unknowns (like thunder, sun, etc), I am content to say I'll let science figure it out.

But if you’re happy with that — then I am, too.  I guess…

I would love to "know" how it all came into existence, but I'm not going to believe something which has no basis for belief in the meantime.

Just keep in your back pocket:  if you ever change your mind, and come to the realization “yeah.  There’s got to be a God.  All this didn’t just happen.”

If I ever change my mind, it will be because a god wants it to be changed.


Then just keep in mind:  God loves you.  The creator of time, space, and matter/energy wants to have a personal relationship with you.

As soon as he tells me, I'm all in...
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 09:47:03 PM by ZenMode »

Volbrigade/oU

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2020, 06:49:57 PM »
The above is, to me, rather fantastic thinking to which I do not subscribe, at all. 

But I'm fine if others do.
Where, sir, is the "fantastic thinking" in the following:

//It’s perplexing how many people are content with a brutally simplistic view of our shared reality, that has been shoveled into their head since they gained consciousness, and which they just passively accept.

“Somehow the universe exploded into existence.  Somehow it organized itself.  Somehow matter became alive.  Somehow it kept getting more and more complex.  Somehow it began to think.  For some reason, it turned into ‘me’.  The pattern of matter that is ‘me’ will be conscious for awhile.  And then it will disassociate forever.  And then someday the universe will suffer a ‘“heat death”, all heat having flown to cold, and no more work can be done’.  And that’s it.  And what difference does any of it make?”

That is, if they even think it through that far.

And then they turn around and call themselves “free thinkers” and “open minded”, when their thinking is tightly constrained within the most narrow of parameters. 

No wonder this is the age of nihilism.//  




Cincydawg

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2020, 07:46:55 AM »
Nephelim in UFOs .... 

Not for me.

Cincydawg

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2020, 08:21:36 AM »
I am able to accept incredible sounding ideas if there is evidence.  Speculation sans evidence, not for me.

Drew4UTk

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2020, 10:25:28 AM »
Nephelim in UFOs ....

Not for me.
Occams Razor has been used to determine the likelihood of "visitors" is more likely to be "us" from a different time than from another galaxy. 

We speak of odds... the odds of a society from the stars who not only know about us but also overlap our time of existing, is astronomical (pun intended)... its almost as great as things just falling into place for us to exist at all... of course, in some dimension somewhere if you want to follow that line of reason we're all one happy interstellar group throwing parties with starfleet...

Nephilim in UFOs?... no... the nephilim were the product of fallen angels and daughters of man (or, offspring of creation... which could lead to all kinds of strange beasts- dinosaurs? Other mythical animals? Critters like on lord of the rings?)... the nephilim were men of great; men of renown... they were physically extremely powerful but they were also far beyond our own intelligence. And to make it worse they were disciples of the fallen giving them secrets of the heavens... but they aren't in UFOs, because..... theyre dead.  Never to be seen again.

The nephilim later- the post deluge giants, were a shadow of the prior ones... they were watered down versions and had lost their secrets except when conjuring demons... and the remaining demons are only here because they chose to abide by the Laws offered them... those who didn't were cast to a form of purgatory where they await latter days.... those fallen are far more dangerous than the ones we've been dealing with, but that doesn't make the ones we've been dealing with malevolent either.

the nephilim aren't the ones in UFOs... that would be the fallen.  The angels either remaining or recently paroled poking through their dimensional layer into ours... and being seen...

Reject this? Sure.... do you figure I'm standing on a street corner with a cardboard sign proclaiming this as fact to passer-by? ... nope... i have no conviction that "this is right; truth."... but i DO have conviction it is a possibility.... and just as likely as explanations offered by Science (specifically some disciplines of physics and the ones that believe there to be a dimension where every possibility exists). 

One thing I am certain about and WILL proclaim from whatever platform presented:  the world is a fantastical place.  Things were/are/will be that we just flat can't and aren't supposed to grasp.... then there is all in between which we can define, and can provide a real Mccoy swag at... we can and do continue to learn about the world, which was something we were gifted and is honorable to do... yet.... we'll never approach the knowledge of the fallen much less God.  And to think we can is falling prey to the deceiver... it shouldn't end the pursuit, but it should end the arrogance that we believe we can approximate God in any shade.

We were made in his image.... what does that mean?  Just appearance?

ZenMode

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Re: Was there a literal Tower of Babel?
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2020, 11:11:51 AM »
I am able to accept incredible sounding ideas if there is evidence.  Speculation sans evidence, not for me.
You seem to be saying contradictory things.  In one post you seem to be expressing your belief in a god, but then you come back with this.  Explain.

 

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