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Topic: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead

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fuzzynavol

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2019, 06:08:21 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 18, 2019, 05:47:56 PM
My "point" is that Red Flag laws may not work at all in reality.
 
Not at all?
A crazy person keen on retaining his weapons is going to be able to do so covertly.  

Sometimes, yes.  

Presuming there is a hearing where the crazy person can claim he's not crazy or likely to kill people, he'll know the outcome and that the police are coming.  Nobody will know how many weapons he has so he should be easily able to hide some of them.  I'm just not clear on how this can work.

It won't always work, but it won't be 100% ineffective, either.  

An autistic 19 year old living at home may not have the money or wherewithal to run out and buy a gun, assuming they're even aware they're about to lose their privileges.  
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Drew4UTk

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2019, 06:12:27 PM »
in your scenario, which is heavily leaned toward an answer you seek, doesn't matter one bit. 

it's a RIGHT recognized by the CONSTITUTION.  It isn't going anywhere. 

and your odds be damned, IF I ever face an aggressor is all that matters.  I'm not going to waste my time explaining to them or you about odds.  

you're like a guy i once knew who smarted off to a stranger in a bar, and when the guy clocked him he stood there dumbfounded literally wondering out loud why the guy hit him... it isn't the way things were supposed to happen in his head... the odds were against it in his head... it was just SO unfair... 

I'm not going to be a victim, Fuzz, because I accept responsibility for myself and family.  odds be damned.  likelihood not even measured.  

and this isn't even delving into the 'tyranny of the government' aspect.  

but..... just for fun.... if these things are SO unlikely in either case, why are you even arguing about who has or doesn't have a gun?  Why do you care if the odds are so unlikely? 
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HK_Vol

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2019, 06:16:30 PM »
They'll turn on you in a New York minute - no matter who you are.....now it has gone from Trump's fault to Chelsea Clinton's fault.  These people are so devoid of logic they should be ignored.  What exactly are they "learning" in college?

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/324811/#respond

SNIP:
Repeatedly pointing her finger inches from Chelsea Clinton’s chest, a young woman at NYU (sporting what appears to be a Bernie Sanders campaign tee shirt) lambastes the pregnant Clinton. “Forty-nine people died because of the rhetoric that you put out there,” the young woman rages, referring, one assumes, to Clinton’s condemnation of antisemitic rhetoric. Onlookers snap their fingers. Clinton was on campus because she had been invited to participate in a vigil for the victims of the New Zealand massacre.
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Cincydawg

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2019, 06:23:02 PM »
I said I could be OK with suitable Red Flag laws.  I'm pondering their likely effectiveness.  You have apparently three groups to which they might be directed:

1.  Old geezers going senile who should not be around guns, but aren't likely to go out and kill a lot of other people.
2.  Angry malevolent types on the edge of killing people.  They would be sentient enough to get around confiscation.
3.  Folks targeted by relatives or neighbors etc. who just don't like them and want to drag them into a competency hearing.

Might it actually work on occasion?  It might, but it's worth some "cost-benefit" analysis and conjecture to evaluate whether it indeed is worth the effort.
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mcwterps1

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2019, 06:28:54 PM »
It's an ammendment. 

It's literally right there.  An AMENDMENT.  Meaning it is not written in stone. It can be amended. 

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HK_Vol

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2019, 06:30:47 PM »
Need to outlaw knives as well.....




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Cincydawg

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2019, 06:31:26 PM »
Amendments CAN be amended.  I imagine we all appreciate that.  We also understand the high hurdle that would require, something which is exceedingly unlikely as a prospect.

The dude faintly praised Trump for one item and criticized him as well.  He apparently also praised China a good bit.  He's been called an "eco-fascist", which doesn't sound much like Trump to me.
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Cincydawg

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2019, 06:31:47 PM »
Quote from: HK_Vol on March 18, 2019, 06:30:47 PM
Need to outlaw knives as well.....





Install GPS in all knives.
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HK_Vol

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2019, 06:34:26 PM »
In case you missed it the first time around.
You seem to be on his side...

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/radicalization-degeneration-brenton-tarrant-white-supremacist/

SNIP:
  • Tarrant identifies himself as an “ethno-nationalist eco-fascist.” He says he was first a communist, then an anarchist, then a libertarian, and finally an eco-fascist. He’s 28. This is not a stable person.
  • He despises conservatives for having conserved nothing. “Conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it,” he writes. He adds, in all caps, “CONSERVATISM IS DEAD, THANK GOD.” He also despises France’s National Front, or whatever it’s called today. He calls them “milquetoast.” He praises the emergence of Trump as a sign of hope, but mocks Trump too. He says his idea leader is Oswald Mosley, the 20th century British fascist. Point is, the idea that Tarrant has any meaningful connection to the mainstream right is nonsense. The man is true radical.
  • He says his aim is to accelerate history by frightening people and creating conflict. In particular, he wants to cause the US to move to take away people’s guns, and the Second Amendment supporters to respond to this violently.
  • He wants the US to be balkanized into warring racial and regional factions, to destroy the ability of the US to project power around the world.
  • He was radicalized by traveling in Europe and seeing immigrant crime, by seeing how many immigrants are present, and how the dispirited native populations are dying out. Overcome by emotion, he decided that he must do something about it.
  • He said he chose the firearms for his attack specifically to incite an argument within the US, leading to the left attempting to confiscate guns, thereby starting a civil war.
  • He says he is not a Nazi, but it’s hard to know what to make of his politics except to say that he is a national socialist obsessed with race, and hating capitalism. Plus, he loves the environment (“there is no traditionalism without environmentalism”).
  • This was a brutal slap: “Above all, don’t be stale, placid, and boring. No one is inspired by Jeb Bush.”
  • He praises the People’s Republic of China as his ideal state.
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Drew4UTk

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2019, 06:44:07 PM »
Quote from: mcwterps1 on March 18, 2019, 06:28:54 PM
It's an ammendment.

It's literally right there.  An AMENDMENT.  Meaning it is not written in stone. It can be amended.


it's an inalienable natural right recognized by the constitution as such..... do keep up. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2019, 06:45:23 PM »
It can be amended, in theory.  I'm not sure who thinks that is a rational objective, or even what new laws would be enabled that we'd like to have if it were eliminated.

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Drew4UTk

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2019, 06:59:29 PM »
It can be, but it remains one of the pillars of this country, and one so strongly believed that preemptively law enforcement in many instances has come forward to say they would not enforce it.  It would have some major ramifications if it were attempted.  I'd want to avoid that at all costs. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2019, 07:01:15 PM »
Yup, it's not a rational practicable objective.  
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fuzzynavol

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings Leave 49 Dead
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2019, 07:18:58 PM »
Quote from: Drew4UTk on March 18, 2019, 06:12:27 PM
in your scenario, which is heavily leaned toward an answer you seek, doesn't matter one bit.   it's a RIGHT recognized by the CONSTITUTION.  It isn't going anywhere.

LOL - I knew you cop out with a diversion (yeah, that's a personal attack - you deserve it)

You have the right to move freely in public areas, until you don't.  Regular restraining orders relinquish your right to go anywhere you want.  You have the constitutional right to vote, unless you're in jail.  So, you have the constitutional right to own firearms, unless a gun restraining order rescinds that right.  

Is this the best you can do?  


and your odds be damned, IF I ever face an aggressor is all that matters.

Is that your way of admitting that I'm right, and that while it might be overall better for society as a whole, you don't really care because all you care about is yourself and your minuscule odds of losing your gun privileges and then needing one for self defense? 

I guess you're going to have to be personally affected by a mass shooting by someone who was known to be a threat, but allowed to buy a gun anyway.  Then maybe the light will come on for you.   
 
I'm not going to waste my time explaining to them or you about odds.  

Yup, that's because you can't.  

you're like a guy i once knew who smarted off to a stranger in a bar, and when the guy clocked him he stood there dumbfounded literally wondering out loud why the guy hit him... it isn't the way things were supposed to happen in his head... the odds were against it in his head... it was just SO unfair...

To make that analogy applicable, the guy I'm smarting off to is deaf, dumb and blind, so the odds of him clocking me are extremely remote, so I knew that by smarting off to him, I was able to save many other people from getting clocked.   

I'm not going to be a victim, Fuzz, because I accept responsibility for myself and family.  odds be damned.  likelihood not even measured.  

You're acting like I'm advocating for gun abolition.  How about arguing against what I'm actually advocating - gun restraining orders.  

Your gun fetish is rendering you irrational - odd that you'd accuse of being "emotional" earlier in this thread.  Your hypocrisy and logical inconsistency is becoming legendary.   

but..... just for fun.... if these things are SO unlikely in either case, why are you even arguing about who has or doesn't have a gun?  Why do you care if the odds are so unlikely?

Because so many people committing mass shootings, not to mention all the perpetrators of domestic violence, are known to have been dangers prior to them killing.  I don't think the odds are so remote that some of those killings can be prevented.  On the other hand, the possibility of someone having their gun privileges, or rights if you prefer, unfairly revoked and then needing their guns for self defense is highly remote.  
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