header pic

Area51 Board (non-moderated) at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' Scout-Tennessee a51 Crowd- Enjoy ROWDY discussion covering politics, religion, current events, and all things under the sun

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Share this topic!!! Share
Author

Topic: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and

 (Read 1108 times)

DunkingDan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17468
  • Liked:
Harvesting Their Organs

In my very first anti-euthanasia column, published by Newsweek in 1993, I worried that once medicalized killing became accepted, it would soon be joined by “organ harvesting as a plum to society.”
“Alarmist!” I was called. “Slippery slope arguer!” It will never happen, I was assured.

Until it did.

Now in both Netherlands and Belgium, mentally ill and disabled patients are voluntarily euthanized and their organs harvested after being killed. Canada is discussing joining the infamous duo.

I have waited for the organ transplant community to rise up and reject conjoining killing and organ donation. It has been a wait mostly in vain.

Indeed, a letter in the current Journal of the American Medical Association merely warns against haste in widely instituting such a policy due to safety concerns:

Quote
I urge caution before this practice is widely accepted. First, only short-term functional outcomes immediately after transplantation and at 6 months are available. Second, warm ischemia, an inevitable consequence of organ donation after cardiac death, results in greater risk for transplanted organs…
There is a need to study long-term outcomes of transplanted organs resulting from euthanasia so that truly informed consent can be obtained.

How starkly utilitarian can you get?

If all that matters is consent–the clear implication of this letter–why would donors have to be suffering sufficiently to qualify for euthanasia?
Indeed, why not let healthy people who simply want to die and believe others–who want to live–have a greater claim on their livers and hearts volunteer to be killed and harvested?
More at link

President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

TREX

  • Global Moderator
  • All Star
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 4139
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 06:39:52 AM »
Anybody?

VolRage

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2918
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 08:16:39 AM »
So they’re euthanizing their progressive liberal lunatics? I won’t advocate doing that in America. We’ll just ship ours to them.

roadvol

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 3840
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 08:52:07 AM »
Don't laugh...if we ever get Single Payer healthcare here  you can expect more of the same.
Free government paid healthcare is unaffordable.
To help eliminate some of the burden there will be no treatment for seniors over a certain age or anyone with expensive cancer and other terminal illnesses......not cost effective for the pencil pushers in DC.

fuzzynavol

  • seeker of passage
  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 7897
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 09:00:01 AM »
To help eliminate some of the burden there will be no treatment for seniors over a certain age or anyone with expensive cancer and other terminal illnesses......not cost effective for the pencil pushers in DC.
You already tried this lie with the Affordable Care Act.  Didn't work.  

Cincydawg

  • Ombudsman for the Secret Order of the Odd Fellows
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 26190
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 09:05:07 AM »
In my experience, our current health insurance companies "manage" treatment, not to this extent obviously, but they do limit who we can see, how often, etc.

We do pay a lot more for health care in the US than in other countries who have comparable statistical outcomes.

roadvol

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 3840
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 09:16:49 AM »
What lie?
It wasn't a lie then and it's not a lie now.
Single payer healthcare could add between $ 1.2- $1-4 trillion to the budget ( and that's not counting paying healthcare for illegal aliens.)
When less than 50% adults pay taxes now and over 51% of the population receives some type of government assistance where is the money coming from?
It's not cost effective to treat the elderly or terminally ill so they will be the first to be sacrificed to government utopia.

VolRage

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2918
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 09:28:37 AM »
You already tried this lie with the Affordable Care Act.  Didn't work. 
Fuzz, are you claiming that Canada doesn’t slow roll cancer treatment or treatment for the elderly? You might want to research that position a little more. It can take more than 18 months to see a doctor about a serious issue in Canada and you want the same for Americans. Are you insane? Never mind. Most insane folks don’t know their insane.

roadvol

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 3840
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 09:32:29 AM »
He might want to check the flood of people crossing the Canadian border seeking healthcare treatment in the US.
I guess we could always go to Mexico if we're over 65 or we need cancer treatment;)

DunkingDan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17468
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 09:39:57 AM »
He might want to check the flood of people crossing the Canadian border seeking healthcare treatment in the US.
I guess we could always go to Mexico if we're over 65 or we need cancer treatment;)
They have impacted the speed at which you can get certain test or procedures done here in NEPA. As a result medical facilities are expanding and hiring new staff.

Yes you can find some closing as some facilities are outdated and some groups are congregating in areas that allow for more  growth parking, etc coupled with increasing problems in smaller more remote locations.
 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

DunkingDan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17468
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 09:45:18 AM »
In my experience, our current health insurance companies "manage" treatment, not to this extent obviously, but they do limit who we can see, how often, etc.

We do pay a lot more for health care in the US than in other countries who have comparable statistical outcomes.
From previous post from a series IBD ran
Nearly 10% of the cost of health care services, figures PricewaterhouseCoopers, is attributable to medical malpractice lawsuits. Roughly 2% is caused by direct costs of the lawsuits while an additional 5% to 9% is due to expenses run up by defensive medicine.
PricewaterhouseCoopers also found that half of health care costs are due to wasteful spending and said that defensive medicine is the biggest producer of waste.
In Great Britain, where the government's in charge of health care, as many as 1 million people are waiting to get into hospitals at any given time, says the National Center for Policy Analysis.
In Canada, another country where the government metes out care, roughly 900,000 are waiting for hospital beds, the Fraser Institute reports. The New Zealand government says that 90,000 are on hospital waiting lists there.

The facts say:
• Survival rates in the U.S. for common cancers are higher, and in some cases much higher, than in Europe and Canada.
• Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed nations and spend less time waiting for care than Canadians and Britons.
• Americans have more access to new medical technologies than Canadians and United Kingdom residents, and are responsible for most health care innovations.


The U.S. will be short 124,400 front-line physicians by 2025, according to the Association of Medical Colleges.
That does not include the 15,585 new primary-care providers Obamacare is estimated to require.
Put together fewer doctors, more patients and government insurance, and that spells less access to care,

Infant mortality rates are often cited as a reason socialized medicine and single-payer systems are better than what we have here. But according to Dr. Linda Halderman, a policy adviser in the California State Senate, these comparisons are bogus.
Official World Health Organization statistics show the U.S. lagging behind France in infant mortality rates — 6.7 per 1,000 live births vs. 3.8 for France. Halderman notes that in the U.S., any infant born that shows any sign of life for any length of time is considered a live birth. In France — in fact, in most of the European Union — any baby born before 26 weeks' gestation is not considered alive and therefore doesn't "count" in reported infant mortality rates.
France reimburses its doctors at a far lower rate than U.S. physicians would accept.
As David Gratzer, a physician and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, wrote in the summer 2007 issue of City Journal: "In France, the supply of doctors is so limited that during an August 2003 heat wave — when many doctors were on vacation and hospitals were stretched beyond capacity — 15,000 elderly citizens died."

So if our health care is so good, why don't we live as long as everyone else?
Three reasons. One, our homicide rate is two to three times higher than other countries. Two, because we drive so much, we have a higher fatality rate on our roads — 14.24 fatalities per 100,000 people vs. 6.19 in Germany, 7.4 in France and 9.25 in Canada. Three, Americans eat far more than those in other nations, contributing to higher levels of heart disease, diabetes and some cancers.
These are diseases of wealth, not the fault of the health care system. A study by Robert Ohsfeldt of Texas A&M and John Schneider of the University of Iowa found that if you subtract our higher death rates from accidents and homicide, Americans actually live longer than people in other countries.
In countries with nationalized care, medical outcomes are often catastrophically worse. Take breast cancer. According to the Heritage Foundation, breast cancer mortality in Germany is 52% higher than in the U.S.; the U.K.'s rate is 88% higher. For prostate cancer, mortality is 604% higher in the U.K. and 457% higher in Norway. Colorectal cancer? Forty percent higher in the U.K.
But what about the health care paradise to our north? Americans have almost uniformly better outcomes and lower mortality rates than Canada, where breast cancer mortality is 9% higher, prostate cancer 184% higher and colon cancer 10% higher.
Then there are the waiting lists. With a population just under that of California, 830,000 Canadians are waiting to be admitted to a hospital or to get treatment. In England, the list is 1.8 million deep.
Universal health care, wrote Sally Pipes, president of the Pacific Research Institute in her excellent book, "Top Ten Myths Of American Health Care," will inevitably result in "higher taxes, forced premium payments, one-size-fits-all policies, long waiting lists, rationed care and limited access to cutting-edge medicine."

• "Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers." Breast cancer mortality: 52% higher in Germany and 88% higher in the United Kingdom than in the U.S. Prostate cancer mortality: 604% higher in the U.K., 457% higher in Norway. Colo-rectal cancer mortality: 40% higher among Britons.
• "Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians." Rates for breast cancer (9%), prostate cancer (184%) and colon cancer among men (10%) are higher than in the U.S.
• "Americans have better access to treatment of chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries." Roughly 56% of Americans who could benefit are taking statin drugs. Only 36% of the Dutch, 29% of the Swiss, 26% of Germans, 23% of Britons and 17% of Italians who could benefit receive them.
• "Americans have better access to preventive cancer screenings than Canadians." Nine of 10 middle-aged American women have had a mammogram; 72% of Canadian women have. Almost every American woman (96%) has had a pap smear; fewer than 90% of Canadian women have. Roughly 54% of American men have had a prostate cancer test; fewer than one in six Canadian men have. Almost a third of Americans (30%) have had a colonoscopy; only 5% of Canadians have had the procedure.
• "Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians." Nearly 12% of U.S. seniors with below-median incomes self-report being in "excellent" health, while 5.8% of Canadian seniors say the same thing.
• "Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom." Canadians and Britons wait about twice as long, sometimes more than a year, to see a specialist, have elective surgery or get radiation treatment.
• "People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed." More than seven in 10 Germans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and Britons say their health systems need either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."
• "Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians." More than half (51.3%) of Americans are very satisfied with their health care services, while 41.5% of Canadians hold the same view of their system.
• "Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K." There are 34 CT scanners per million Americans. There are 12 per million in Canada and eight per million in Britain. The U.S. has nearly 27 MRI machines per million. Britain and Canada have 6 per million.
• "Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations." The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed nation; the most important recent medical innovations were developed here.
Can the nationalized, universal systems in Britain, Canada or anywhere else improve on this? No, but we can ruin our health care by following the policies of countries where medical treatment is far below the American standard.

President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

gymvol

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6247
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 10:39:20 AM »
In my experience, our current health insurance companies "manage" treatment, not to this extent obviously, but they do limit who we can see, how often, etc.

We do pay a lot more for health care in the US than in other countries who have comparable statistical outcomes.


You need to get a PPO plan instead of a HMO you have more options and don't need referrals.  I have a BCBS PPO plan and have had a couple of surgeries without paying anything and one was heart surgery.

We now pay more for health care because of OBAMACARE along with all the free health care provided to those who can't pay, don't pay, won't pay and illegal aliens in the country.

Hospitals and doctors aren't in the business to break even. 
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

George S. Patton

Cincydawg

  • Ombudsman for the Secret Order of the Odd Fellows
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 26190
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 11:20:04 AM »
I don't have viable alternatives for my own health insurance.  Fortunately, I am rarely in need of medical care.  

It got very annoying when I had kids trying to get the folks to cover what was obviously their responsibility.  They'd deny deny deny and maybe eventually pay.  I gave up a couple of times, I was too busy to persist, which of course is how they "manage care".

I had a physical a few months back, never saw a bill for it other than $21 for some lab work.  That is the first time I saw a doctor in years.

The French system appears to work pretty well overall.  My British friends all tell me they get "slow played", especially true for their parents.  I have a step grand child in France and the level of care for him has been pretty good from what his mom says, and he has had a lot of issues.  The wife has two cousins who are MDs.  She says the man is especially competent.


gymvol

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6247
  • Liked:
Re: Netherlands and Belgium are Euthanizing Mentally Ill Patients and
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 02:24:22 PM »


Another reason laws should be changed for buying health insurance so people can shop across state lines in order to get the cheapest rates and for a policy that best suits their needs.

Nothing like competition to bring down the costs of anything.

But we only need to look at the same people who claim to be helping to provide better or free health care that is keeping that from happening.

It's the 535 members in both houses of congress who the insurance lobbies are paying off to keep that from happening.
If everyone is thinking alike then somebody isn't thinking.

George S. Patton

 

Associate Links/Search