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Topic: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness

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roadvol

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Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« on: November 10, 2019, 02:31:54 PM »
I cut and pasted this from Conservative  Treehouse because  I have been wondering how Vindman could go out of the chain of command in order to be a witness for the Russia type Show Trial :

What Vindman did, in his testimony, is state that he willfully disregarded the policy established by his Commander In Chief, of which he was personally aware, when he told his Ukrainian counter part to stay out of US political affairs and not cooperate with Giuliani. He countermanded this policy unilaterally. He did this without establishing any authority to do so. This is a direct violation of the provisions of the UMCJ and is the reason why his attorney was going nuts. He could be subject to court marshal.
He would have been on solid legal ground if he had reported his concerns up the chain of commander of the organization of which he was a part, the NSC. He could advise them that he, in good conscience, not follow the policy in question and ask to be relieved [military officers can not simply quit an assignment]. He could have requested that he be reassigned through the Army chain of command. However, he did none of this Instead, he unilaterally decided, without supporting authorization, to act directly against the policy established by the CINC in this matter.








fuzzynavol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 02:52:16 PM »
What Vindman did, in his testimony, is state that he willfully disregarded the policy established by his Commander In Chief, of which he was personally aware, when he told his Ukrainian counter part to stay out of US political affairs and not cooperate with Giuliani. 
Just yesterday you were saying that Giuliani was a private citizen and could do anything he wanted because he was irrelevant to this entire situation.  

Today you're arguing that not cooperating with him amounts to treason against the United States?  

I know it's hard to keep up with your thought-leaders, but you might want to get your spin straight.

Cincydawg

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 02:56:30 PM »
If we're picky, I'd note that it would be "court martial".  If he told his Ukrainian counterpart not to interact with Guiliani, he could be guilty of countermanding higher authority.

This is not about what Guiliani may have done.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 03:11:15 PM »
If he told his Ukrainian counterpart not to interact with Guiliani, he could be guilty of countermanding higher authority.
Not according to The Roady Rule.  Giuliani is merely a private citizen, so why would anyone be obligated to interact with him in any way? 

Cincydawg

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 03:15:17 PM »
IF the President wanted the Ukrainian to interact with a private citizen and an underling said not to follow that directive ...

... this is pretty simple stuff.  It has nothing to do with Guiliani specifically.  It is contradicting what appears to be a "legal order" in effect, policy of the US government.

DunkingDan

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President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

fuzzynavol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 03:22:12 PM »
IF the President wanted the Ukrainian to interact with a private citizen and an underling said not to follow that directive ...

... this is pretty simple stuff.  It has nothing to do with Guiliani specifically.  It is contradicting what appears to be a "legal order" in effect, policy of the US government.
So do you therefore accept Giuliani's public confession of relaying Trump's quid pro quo?  

Or like Roady, do you believe that since he was a private citizen, he was allowed to say anything to anyone he wanted, and it should have no bearing on the impeachment deliberations?  

Feel free to dodge the questions - this is A51 after all.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 03:24:21 PM »
I did not see Guiliani's public confession of relating any QPQ.  That appears to me to be an entirely separate issue.

If Trump asks Ukraine to interact with me as his personal emissary and some Lt. Col. tells them not to, that's insubordination prima facia.

It matters not one bit who the private citizen is in this case.

ATexasVol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 07:20:40 PM »
So do you therefore accept Giuliani's public confession of relaying Trump's quid pro quo? 

Or like Roady, do you believe that since he was a private citizen, he was allowed to say anything to anyone he wanted, and it should have no bearing on the impeachment deliberations? 

Feel free to dodge the questions - this is A51 after all. 


Fuzz, just how desperate are you?  Vindman is a Lieutenant Colonel in the US Army.  Do you think that makes him a private citizen?   Do you think military officers can countermand policies and orders from their CIC?  Or is it okay in this case because orange man bad?   

This has to be one of your dumber posts, and given your body of work, that is quite the statement.   

fuzzynavol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 07:34:51 PM »
Vindman is a Lieutenant Colonel in the US Army.  Do you think that makes him a private citizen?

No, but I think Giuliani is a private citizen, and therefore irrelevant of matters related to the government, again, according to The Roady Rule.

Do you think military officers can countermand policies and orders from their CIC?

You mean like the multiple people that Trump (criminally) told to obstruct the Mueller investigation?

roadvol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 09:44:54 PM »
Say what!?!?
Vindman went out of the chain of command....
Has nothing to do with Gulianni.
Are you losing your mind?....


roadvol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2019, 10:05:33 PM »
Fuzz is getting more desperate and incoherent by the hour.
He's so desperate to find something ...to find anything on Trump he's leaping at shadows.
Fuzz has become the face of those afflicted with TDS


fuzzynavol

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 11:19:28 PM »
Vindman went out of the chain of command....
Has nothing to do with Gulianni.
According to The Roady Rule, since Giuliani is a private citizen, he is outside the purview of all governmental affairs.  

If there's nothing wrong with Giuliani delivering Trump's quid pro quo demands, then surely there's nothing wrong with Vindman telling the Ukrainians to ignore him.  

Right, Roady?  I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?  You wouldn't try to have it both ways, would you?  


Cincydawg

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Re: Lt Col Vindman..Dem's Star Witness
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 05:33:32 AM »
A President has the power to designate a private citizen as his personal representative obviously and ask that a foreign government interact with him.

For a subordinate to contravene that would be insubordination.  This is simple stuff.


 

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