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Topic: Liberals Rule!

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KnoxKid

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Liberals Rule!
« on: July 21, 2017, 02:20:55 PM »
Conservatives drool!  :72:

Drew4UTk

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 02:34:58 PM »
the orange man disagrees... so does the majority of congress and senate... and even the supreme court has taken a decided deviation from that. 

but you guys do in fact rule... places like Baltimore.. Detroit... Chicago... Memphis... Atlanta....

 O:-)

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 02:37:28 PM »
And libertarians ridicule...

...the misrule of both.

Drew4UTk

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 02:46:14 PM »
And libertarians ridicule...

...the misrule of both.

boom.... and that is the truth... the two party system is a distraction and suffices to keep people divided.... we have all the tools to defeat it in this age... and we should, else we tear this place apart while the charlatans on both sides of the aisle gain and remain without a care.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 04:47:31 PM »
boom.... and that is the truth... the two party system is a distraction and suffices to keep people divided.... we have all the tools to defeat it in this age... and we should, else we tear this place apart while the charlatans on both sides of the aisle gain and remain without a care.

Sadly, no. America's congressional direct representation coupled with the FPTP (first past the post) voting system basically make it impossible for 3 parties to exist in a stable configuration. In order to have minority parties which are stable, you need a proportional representation system awarding seats to parties based on overall election performance.

Various pollsters have put "people who hold libertarian political beliefs" at anywhere just below 10% of the population to somewhere just north of 20%, depending on the questions they ask and how they categorize them. So let's say give it a rough split of the difference and say libertarians are maybe 15% of the population.

In our system, you directly vote for a representative. Some districts have more Republicans than Democrats. Some districts have more Democrats than Republicans. But nearly zero districts have more Libertarians than either one of the above. So in zero districts will a Libertarian (or any other third party) get elected. And if they do, they're going to be the only third-party candidate in Congress, and get nothing done. Do you want to elect someone who you know is going to get nothing accomplished... Well, actually that's usually the preferred case for libertarians... But not for most people.

So the two main parties try to court third-party votes, largely with the "well we're closer to your position than Other Party, so vote for us to protect yourself from the evil Other Party." And that's all well and good, but that's a coalition that only makes it to election night. After that, they forget about the third party's ideals because they're in power.

In Parliamentary systems with proportional representation, the Libertarian Party might get 15% of the seats in Congress, and the Green Party say 8%. And then they'd both be a sizable voting block with which the Republicans and Democrats (who may no longer reach 50% of either house) will have to form coalitions with. At any time the minority party can walk away from the coalition if their policies are not at least given some play, so they have real power.

So no, although the advent of the internet would make you think we have the power to finally see a third party make sizable inroads, it's not going to happen until America's voting system and representation system is completely overhauled, and I don't see that *ever* happening.

Something I wrote on the subject back in 2013: Fusionism and the "Coalition Government"
Fusionism and the "Coalition Government"

Drew4UTk

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 05:17:03 PM »
[member=19]bwarbiany[/member]  , i'll read that tonight when things are settling... thanks for sharing!!

my thoughts weren't toward a viable third party- that is fodder for fools, though i personally identify libertarian (if i had to choose).  My thoughts were about abandonment of the 'two parties'...

without getting too involved here right now (time is something i don't have an excess of lately) the days of using the excuse of 'strength in numbers' to hide actions and while making a commodity of 'supporting votes' while playing with peoples livelihoods and liberties could be defeated with the ever present visibility of social media, breaking news every second, and personal computing devices.  example:  imagine yourself a representitive; imagine presenting something of great importance to your constituents; imagine being told "we'll back your pet so long as you back ours"- and though the two 'projects' are unrelated and their's doesn't have an impact on your district, you are opposed to their project in principle.... what do you do?

it drives me insane.... these people work for us- they're 'sposed to represent our interests.. you can't tell me a republican in New York has the same interests on a granular level as a republican in, say, Idaho.. but one will back the other categorically in some ill begotten 'pact of treachery' just to get what they want- and what they really want is votes.............  in this age a webpage could easily be presented and members based on geography could be given access and every single issue weighed via the power of participation.. reports could be generated and presented to constituents... activities such as 'trading votes' provided for visibility... within a few cycles and a few cycles only the power of the system's balance could tip back toward citizens....

i know... pipe dream... and something the ever present and all powerful party's would undermine.  it's like demanding term limits... it's 'good' to talk about, but nothing any one of them have any interest in pursuing... seriously- another example (and I gotta go; spent more time typing this than intended already) is the "Fair Tax", which (in concept) has been around 20 years- and it is fully possible and transparent- but ask ANY politician about it and you get a blank look or some sort of talk about 'flat tax' (which the Fair Tax isn't exactly)... they DON'T WANT to acknowledge it.  so.. they don't... 20 years+ they've ignored it...

amazing. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 05:36:55 PM »
Don't get me started! I was a contributor to The FairTax Blog for a while... You'd have go back and look at the REALLY early stuff (2005-2006) to find it, as I've soured on the idea that it will ever be implemented.

But yeah, even with transparency I don't think it'll go anywhere, because people don't have the attention span or the will to pay attention. Nor do they really have political ideologies most of the time...

People view this too often as red team vs blue team. Another thing I wrote: Humans are Pack Animals Who Pretend to Reason

Drew4UTk

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 06:13:48 PM »
again, i'll read that in a bit...

but.. the title brought to mind an old french philosophy of "noble savage" and "contract with society"... 

Drew4UTk

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 10:13:39 PM »
those were both good reads, [member=19]bwarbiany[/member]  ,,,, they deserve threads of their own. 

VolRage

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 10:49:49 AM »
Knoxkid, I've reported you to the moderator for violating the Loon interpretation of the 1st Amendment. It specifically states, "All speech must be Politically Correct in regards to the given audience".

DunkingDan

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 05:21:33 PM »
<br /><br />
Conservatives drool!  :72:
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

MichiFan87

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 06:03:24 PM »
I'll be interested to see what kinds of topics we end discussing on this board, but this is an interesting start....

I would also favor a no-party system. Dismantling the electoral college would also encourage people outside swing states to vote, though that's not going to happen anytime soon. I tend to side with the political viewpoints of the Green Party, but the only places they have a chance or VT/NH/ME, San Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, and various liberal college towns.

Haven't read the two links, but they sound interesting.
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
― Bo Schembechler

VolRage

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 11:53:14 PM »
MichiFan87, you're not one of those tree huggers are you. Green Party?? Please don't tell me you hang out in the woods crying over dead trees and logging.

MichiFan87

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Re: Liberals Rule!
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 02:46:43 PM »
No - I just know that science and economics have the answers to a lot of our problems. I work in energy & sustainability (renewables, energy efficiency, etc.), and there is no future for coal, only a short-term one for oil as automated electric vehicles take over, and a medium-term one for natural gas (nuclear is a wildcard). Energy storage technologies (namely batteries) are becoming cost-effective, too, so, that helps keep the grid-balanced as wind and solar take over. Demand-side technologies are also used on large facilities that will be commercialized for residential customers eventually (smart homes with occupancy sensors instead of light switches, thermostats even smarter than the current Nest ones, appliances that run automatically, etc.). I could explain this further, but those are the basics.

I'm not the kind person who goes on political marches or anything like that. I lived in DC last summer, and I know I couldn't live there, especially right now. I support progressive stances on social issues, too, but I don't attend LGBT parades and the like.
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
― Bo Schembechler

 

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