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Topic: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration

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Hightop77

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2019, 10:41:00 PM »
BTW - who ever went to jail for weaponizing the IRS?
Another example of illegal activity within the Obama Administration that his Attorney General, Eric Holder, refused to even investigate.  Most corrupt administration in history.

ATexasVol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2019, 11:08:38 PM »
Ordering a subordinate to interfere with an investigation would be obstruction.

Wrong.  Nothing was obstructed - they refused to carry out his orders.  Even though they didn't do it, the orders themselves constitute a crime.  

No, you are wrong. You are making a tenuous connection between what Trump allegedly said, and some vague crime that you can't even name.  And to make matters worse, there is not even an underlying crime of collusion.  As I said in a previous post, Mueller was unable to make a case for the basic elements essential for any charge, or he would have done so.  

If you hire someone to commit murder, and they turn you in to the police instead, you are guilty of a crime, but that crime is not "murder" because you personally didn't murder anybody.  Similarly, if you tell a subordinate to commit obstruction and they rat you out to Mueller instead, you are guilty of a crime, but that crime is not "obstruction" because you didn't personally obstruct anything (actually, no one did).  

Fuzz, you can't even think for yourself, not to mention render a legal opinion.  Provide a link from someone who has some legal expertise.    I already have, but it doesn't fit into your narrative, so you won't even read it.   

Case dismissed.   

fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2019, 11:32:24 PM »
You are making a tenuous connection between what Trump allegedly said

I'm relaying information from the Mueller Report.  Sorry they didn't report it on Fox News for you.

and some vague crime that you can't even name.

I'm not a lawyer and don't know the name of the crime.  I was wondering if someone would try to seize on that and try to spin it as though that somehow changes the fact of its illegality.  

And to make matters worse, there is not even an underlying crime of collusion.

That doesn't make matters better or worse, it's actually irrelevant to the crimes that Trump is reported to have committed by Mueller.

As I said in a previous post, Mueller was unable to make a case for the basic elements essential for any charge, or he would have done so. 

You can relay any fantasies you want, meanwhile I'll rely on Mueller's own position which was he could not bring charges against a sitting POTUS.  

If you hire someone to commit murder, and they turn you in to the police instead, you are guilty of a crime, but that crime is not "murder" because you personally didn't murder anybody.  Similarly, if you tell a subordinate to commit obstruction and they rat you out to Mueller instead, you are guilty of a crime, but that crime is not "obstruction" because you didn't personally obstruct anything (actually, no one did). 

Fuzz, you can't even think for yourself

Again, I'm relaying information from the Mueller Report.  

not to mention render a legal opinion.

I'm not a judge, so I won't be rendering legal opinions.  I have accurately relayed the findings of the Mueller Report.  

Provide a link from someone who has some legal expertise.

I already have.  Not one person in this forum bothered to listen to it.  You might want to come to grips with what I'm telling you - it's not going to be the last you hear of it.    

I already have, but it doesn't fit into your narrative, so you won't even read it.

Right.  It doesn't fit my narrative.  My narrative was never obstruction.  Newsflash:  There are other laws out there.  For instance, it would be illegal for a POTUS to order a subordinate to commit obstruction.  Just like it would be illegal for someone to hire a hitman.  Shoplifting is also illegal.  Hey, maybe you should post a video of someone explaining why Trump isn't guilty of shoplifting.  That would show me, wouldn't it?     




HK_Vol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2019, 03:41:58 AM »
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-28/attkisson-why-obstruction-cover-claims-smack-desperation

Read the whole thing.....

Attkisson: Why Obstruction & 'Cover-Up' Claims Smack Of Desperation

SNIP:
Those who think Trump is unfit for office, or who otherwise oppose him, might carry more weight if they publicly acknowledge that they chased their tails for two years and, when they finally snagged it, realized they hadn’t captured the enemy. Then, they could more credibly move forward to another focus, such as targeting the Trump policies they find objectionable.

In the end, Trump wasn’t the liar on this major point; instead, his critics were the ones who were sorely mistaken. They accused the president of the worst sort of treachery but, according to Mueller, Trump was telling the truth all along when he said there was no collusion with Russia.



I’m no political expert but, to me as an Average Joe, the continued focus on supposed obstruction of a crime that wasn’t committed simply smacks of desperation.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2019, 07:26:18 AM »

Read the whole thing.....

I'm going to assume that you're posting the most salient excerpt, and if this is irrelevant to the crime that Trump committed according to the Mueller Report, then there's no logical reason for me to "read the whole thing."

Attkisson: Why Obstruction & 'Cover-Up' Claims Smack Of Desperation

The title alone constitutes a false premise - you're making the same mistake that Billy made.  The Mueller Report does not indicate Trump is guilty of obstruction.  I don't know how many times I have to repeat that, and frankly, I'm beginning to wonder which one of you guys is the biggest idiot and if I should show you all more pity.  Further, not that it matters, but the phrase 'Cover-Up' is in quotes but I'm highly doubtful it actually appears in the Report.  That's a tell-tale sign the author of this irrelevancy is not offering his opinions in good faith.  

Those who think Trump is unfit for office, or who otherwise oppose him, might carry more weight if they publicly acknowledge that they chased their tails for two years and, when they finally snagged it, realized they hadn’t captured the enemy.
 
Yup, just as I suspected, this is clearly a rightwing propaganda piece.  I have very clearly described a crime for you that you are unable to even comprehend, much less address or debunk.  

Here.  Just for any lurkers that may need a reminder.  Trump ordered his subordinates to commit obstruction.  That is a fact (according to the Report) and it is a crime.  This thread has 7 pages of obfuscations and diversions, but again, none of you can comprehend, address or debunk that fact.  It's a shocking testimony as to the level of thick-headed stupidity that reigns on this board.  


They accused the president of the worst sort of treachery but, according to Mueller, Trump was telling the truth all along when he said there was no collusion with Russia.

This is correct - Mueller found no collusion.  


I’m no political expert but, to me as an Average Joe, the continued focus on supposed obstruction of a crime that wasn’t committed simply smacks of desperation.

For the 28th time, that's not Trump's crime(s) contained in the Mueller Report.  
Okay, so who else would like to post an irrelevant article that addresses crimes not alleged?  Dan?  Maybe you'd like to take a shot at it.  I'm sure this whole thread has gone way over your head, too.  Maybe you drop a bomb-shell that Trump wasn't found to be guilty of collusion!  Or shoplifting!


HK_Vol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2019, 07:31:05 AM »
Fuzz. 
You're sounding as shrill as those "Obama birthers".
You need to give it up already....

fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2019, 07:53:43 AM »
Fuzz.
You're sounding as shrill as those "Obama birthers".
You need to give it up already....
I'm sorry HK, but can you imagine how frustrating it is to try to debate a group of people who can't understand such a simple point despite my having made it repeatedly for 7 pages?  

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not really the one who should be apologizing.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2019, 08:19:42 AM »
If Trump shot someone on Fifth Avenue, and somehow was not charged, would it matter?

BrownCounty

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2019, 08:27:47 AM »
can you imagine how frustrating it is to try to debate a group of people who can't understand such a simple point despite my having made it repeatedly for 7 pages?

Try being more concise.  Verbosity only impresses yourself.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2019, 08:36:16 AM »
If Trump shot someone on Fifth Avenue, and somehow was not charged, would it matter?
Nothing matters, remember?  

Cincydawg

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2019, 08:36:44 AM »
Trump may have obstructed justice.  Barr ruled the charge would not be provable in court.  The House has not (yet) impeached.

The item is moot (or theoretical), unless/until the House impeaches.

I've seen "legal analysts" from both sides claiming it was or was not obstruction.  All the evidence we have is what some Trump associates may have told Mueller's team.  Trump could claim "That isn't what I said/meant." and likely raise reasonable doubt if it's only verbal discussion.

He said/he said.

I think pounding on this point by Democrats is more likely to alienate some in the middle than persuade them to vote Dem.


fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2019, 08:37:43 AM »
Try being more concise.  Verbosity only impresses yourself.
The Mueller Report says that Trump ordered his subordinates to commit obstruction.  That is a crime.  

Is that concise enough for you?  

fuzzynavol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2019, 08:44:16 AM »
Trump may have obstructed justice.

According to the Mueller Report, he did not.

Barr ruled the charge would not be provable in court.  The House has not (yet) impeached.

Correct.

The item is moot (or theoretical), unless/until the House impeaches.

Some people value knowing the truth, regardless of its impact on human events.  

I've seen "legal analysts" from both sides claiming it was or was not obstruction.  All the evidence we have is what some Trump associates may have told Mueller's team.  Trump could claim "That isn't what I said/meant." and likely raise reasonable doubt if it's only verbal discussion.  He said/he said.

Again, we are debating the contents of the Mueller Report, which concludes that Trump ordered his subordinates to commit obstruction.  That's a fact, not a debatable opinion.  

I think pounding on this point by Democrats is more likely to alienate some in the middle than persuade them to vote Dem.

Maybe so, and I'm sure they're considering the political implications of their strategy, and I'm sure there's plenty of disagreement.  

HK_Vol

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Re: Hypothetical: Biden wins, Ginsburg retires right after inauguration
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2019, 08:45:24 AM »
Should Farage have been jailed for insubordination?

I want you all fired!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvAaf0YjWT8

Fact is, none of his rants were acted upon....neither Farage nor Trump...

 

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