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Topic: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.

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ATexasVol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2020, 12:16:34 AM »

fuzzynavol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2020, 07:56:09 AM »

There's no point blaming the tragedies fo socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders.

There's also no point blaming the tragedies of religion on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders, either (which of course, religious people ALWAYS do).

Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others...

Is that really what Bernie's advocating?  

Cincydawg

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2020, 08:03:10 AM »
Bernie wants a significant expansion in the role of government in our lives, significant.  Concentration of more power in government inherently means less freedom, less choice, less individualism as the folks in DC "provide" for us what they think we need.

If we "resist", they bring down the Power of Government on our heads to suppress resistance.

Governments are inefficient, as are all large enterprises in the human experience.  Larger government means more inefficiency, and a concentration of power away from The People.  Central planning is less efficient than free markets.  Sweden went too far Left in the 1990s and was able to step back from that.

HK_Vol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2020, 08:05:54 AM »
Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others... Is that really what Bernie's advocating? 

Um, yes, in principal.
We deplorables cannot make good decisions.
Thus, we must send all our money to the Federal Government, who with their wise bureaucrats will re-distribute to us as they see fit as they know better.
The US should Federalize everything.

From CNN, that right-wing source:


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/14/politics/kfile-bernie-nationalization/index.html


Bernie Sanders advocated for the nationalization of most major industries, including energy companies, factories, and banks, when he was a leading member of a self-described "radical political party" in the 1970s, a CNN KFile review of his record reveals.


During this time, Sanders and Liberty Union argued for nationalization of the energy industry, public ownership of banks, telephone, electric, and drug companies and of the major means of production such as factories and capital, as well as other proposals such as a 100% income tax on the highest income earners in America.


Sanders' policy proposals that year also included an ambitious plan to deal with companies attempting to leave towns.

"We have got to begin to deal with the fact that corporations do not have the god-given right to disrupt the lives of their workers or the economic foundation of their towns simply because they wish to move elsewhere to earn a higher rate of profit," Sanders said in a press release in August 1976.

Sanders' plan would require large businesses attempting to leave cities to get permission from the towns and the workers in them. If the company did not get that approval they would be required by law to pay a guaranteed two years of severance for workers and 10 years of taxes for the town.

Nationally, Sanders said, legislation corporations leaving cities would have to be dealt with by turning the means of production over to the workers.

"In the long run, the problem of the fleeing corporations must be dealt with on the national level by legislation which will bring about the public ownership of the major means of production and their conversion into worker-controlled enterprises," he said.

HK_Vol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2020, 08:08:18 AM »

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/bernie-sanders-gnd-plan-will-nationalize-power-generation-in-the-u-s.html


SNIP:
The plan has rightly been likened to nationalizing electric power generation. Chris Hayes noted this fact in his recent interview with Sanders, calling the Sanders plan “a federal takeover of the whole thing,” to which Sanders essentially agrees (see video at the top). Other writers have said the same. For example, In These Times, under the headline “Bernie Sanders Calls To Seize the Means of Electricity Production” accurately describes the plan as “moving toward 100% public ownership of power.”

August 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DGsFOwXt2Q&feature=emb_logo


Cincydawg

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2020, 08:08:39 AM »
But, he's not a socialist, we're informed ...

Cincydawg

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2020, 08:34:14 AM »
If you think about a "problem statement", folks often agree with it that far.  The core issue is whether government can solve said problem best, or some other approach.

Some things are best solved by government.   Many things not.  We disagree on which things.

I'm sure we'd all like to end poverty.  LBJ started a huge anti-poverty program that did reduce poverty initially, the rate dropped, and then since has flat lined, despite all the money thrown at the problem.  The rate goes up and down with the economy.  I'm sure we'd all prefer "clean energy", however defined.  We'd all like a solid infrastructure.  We'd all like a competent military.  We'd all like an efficient court system.  The list gets long.

Bernie's approach very clearly is "more government" to solve these problems, more regulation, more taxes, more laws, more government intrusion into the economic system.  If you think government is the best way to solve problems, he's your guy, or Liz, or many of the other Democrats.


HK_Vol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2020, 08:53:33 AM »
Most repeated Elizabeth Warren saying: "I've got a plan for that....."

Cincydawg

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2020, 09:22:26 AM »
Warren reminds me a lot of Hillary, sour faced, a plan for everything, details out the wazoo.  And she's getting beat by Bernie who has some vague notional plans that basically say "I fully support X and propose to spend $Y to fix the problem".

His web site is a model of vagueness.

ATexasVol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2020, 10:05:24 AM »
Don't be using Bernie's words against him.  Just because he said something doesn't mean he meant it.  Fuzz knows what he really means.   


Cincydawg

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2020, 10:10:48 AM »
Don't be using Bernie's words against him.  Just because he said something doesn't mean he meant it.  Fuzz knows what he really means. 


Yeah, it would be FRAMING HIM apparently to term him a Democratic Socialist.  


In a speech he gave at the National Committee for Independent Political Action in New York City on June 22, 1989, reprinted in the December 1989 issue of the socialist publication Monthly Review: “In Vermont, everybody knows that I am a socialist and that many people in our movement, not all, are socialists. And as often as not — and this is an interesting point that is the honest-to-God truth — what people will say is, ‘I don’t really know what socialism is, but if you’re not a Democrat or a Republican, you’re OK with me.’ That’s true. And I think there has been too much of a reluctance on the part of progressives and radicals to use the word ‘socialism.’”


 In the book he wrote with Huck Gutman, Outsider in the House, published in 1997: “Bill Clinton is a moderate Democrat. I’m a democratic socialist.”


 In an interview with The Washington Post in November 2006. “I wouldn’t deny it. Not for one second. I’m a democratic socialist. … In Norway, parents get a paid year to care for infants. Finland and Sweden have national health care, free college, affordable housing and a higher standard of living. … . Why shouldn’t that appeal to our disappearing middle class?”

fuzzynavol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2020, 11:51:06 AM »
Bernie wants a significant expansion in the role of government in our lives, significant.

Ooh - dramatic.

Concentration of more power in government inherently means less freedom

More power for the government that has no profit motive, and less power for the healthcare industry that does.

less choice

Ideological pablum.

less individualism
 
Wow - even worse ideological pablum.

as the folks in DC "provide" for us what they think we need.

By picking up the bill for our healthcare?  

You right-wingers are hilarious.

If we "resist", they bring down the Power of Government on our heads to suppress resistance.

Has someone hacked your account?  Is this a joke?  We're talking about government funded healthcare here.  

Governments are inefficient, as are all large enterprises in the human experience.  Larger government means more inefficiency, and a concentration of power away from The People.

Yeah, we all heard Limbaugh back in the 80's.

Central planning is less efficient than free markets.

The only thing our current healthcare system is efficient at is enriching itself monetarily.  

Sweden went too far Left in the 1990s and was able to step back from that.

Good for them.  

fuzzynavol

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2020, 11:58:35 AM »

Independent Political Action in New York City on June 22, 1989






In an interview with The Washington Post in November 2006. “I wouldn’t deny it. Not for one second. I’m a democratic socialist.




katmai

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Re: For any of you thinking you like Bernie.
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2020, 12:50:06 PM »
He is an absolute fraud.

I am pulling for him in the Primary though
Be careful what you wish for.  I am sure there were a lot of Democrats that wanted Trump to win the Republican nomination in 2016, thinking he would be easy to beat.  There is at least a 40% chance that whoever the Democratic nominee is will be the next President.  Sanders is crazy, but the American people have proven in the last two Presidential election cycles that they have collectively lost their minds.

 

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