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Topic: Electricity update Pt. 10

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Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2020, 08:16:32 AM »
Coal seems to be being replace by NG, and to a lesser extent wind and solar.


HK_Vol

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2020, 08:28:33 AM »
NG+Solar+Wind is amazingly consistent from day to day.
I've monitored all of June, and it is roughly within a couple of percent every day.
If wind dies, natural gas picks it up.
If wind surges, natural gas production declines.
They complement one another....

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2020, 08:32:43 AM »
Yup, an NG turbine can be producing in minutes, or be shut down with equal facility.

Nuclear and coal need to run steady state, a very different kind of power production.

I surmise this is why the Germans want NG from Russia.


DunkingDan

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2020, 10:37:41 AM »
Yup, an NG turbine can be producing in minutes, or be shut down with equal facility.

Nuclear and coal need to run steady state, a very different kind of power production.

I surmise this is why the Germans want NG from Russia.
Coal is not ran in a steady state mode like Nuclear It has been used along with hydro to follow the load from it's inception.

Yes gas is faster but the lead/lag times for changing loads coal has been more than sufficient.



 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”


Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2020, 10:50:39 AM »
Peaking power refers to electricity use at its highest points during a day. Day to day trends of power usage need to be met by power plants, however it is not optimal for power plants to produce the maximum needed power at all times. Therefore there are baseload power plants like coal-fired power plants which provide the minimum needed electricity, and peaking power plants which meet the fluctuating needs. Common peaking periods might include hot summer days when air conditioners are used, or cold winter days when home heating is a necessity. Most often, peaking power occurs in the afternoon when businesses are at their busiest, and evenings when home appliances are in use.

Natural gas power plants are the most common peaker power plants as they are dispatchable. This means they can be turned on or off and their output can change quite quickly. Hydroelectric facilities that use a reservoir can also be used for peaking power. For example, the Dinorwig hydro power station, located in Wales, can reach its maximum generation in less than 16 seconds.[2]

DunkingDan

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2020, 11:00:17 AM »
Anything that operates by creating steam to spin a turbine is best operated at steady state.
You obviously know very little about how actual power generation works as you said and I quote
Quote
Nuclear and coal need to run steady state

All utilities have used coal to follow the load for years. Many units sit idle until they need them to start up and they can change output from zero to 100% rapidly. 

Kingston Power Station is a excellent example of this with its multiple small units as is or was Paradise, Allen, etc. Now Bull Run was a large unit that was ran steady state as well other large coal plants . This is/was true though out the industry until recently

That is how the industry has operated historically until the advent of NG. They did use some oil burners for quick power in the past as well.

Coal handles large swings in load effectively and the plants have been ran into the ground after decades of excellent service with minimal maintenance. 

This is a issue I know a lot about as I had to deal with it in my job.

I am talking real world not ideal.  I am not surprised that someone is drawing their knowledge from recent history instead of historical and is lining articles showing what is now as coal is a dying industry.

Future problems with NG and lack of coal have been addressed in previous posts as well as unfriendly environmental impacts of the latest feel good so called green energy

« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 11:47:18 AM by DunkingDan »
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2020, 11:08:54 AM »
Well, you are welcome to reside in your delusional world as usual.

I think it obvious how an NG turbine can respond very quickly to changes in load while coal and nuclear cannot.

And, the various multiple sources on the Internet back that opinion up.

On the other hand, we had DD claiming otherwise.  

Coal and nuclear are best used at constant output for OBVIOUS reasons.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2020, 01:08:31 PM »
http://www.americaspower.org/reliable-baseload-power-nations-coal-fleet/

Coal-fueled power plants operate efficiently and produce large amounts of power at a relatively steady level.

At the same time, coal-fueled power plants are not well suited for up-and-down swings in electricity demand that happen throughout the day.  These swings exceed baseload power and are better handled by smaller electric generating units that use natural gas.  Thanks to these peaking units, short-term spikes in electricity demand can be met without jeopardizing electric reliability.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/coal-plants-increasingly-operate-as-cyclical-load-following-power-leading/571245/

Coal plants in general were not built to operate cyclically, and lack the flexibility and natural load-following capabilities of simple and combined cycle natural gas plants. Operating coal units in this way can lead to efficiency losses and high ramp rates are becoming more common.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2020, 01:20:07 PM »
https://www.kcet.org/redefine/explainer-base-load-and-peaking-power

Base load power plants tend to be expensive to build, and coal and nuclear take days to reach full power once fired up. But fuel costs per kilowatt generated tend to be low, at least if you don't count the ecological costs.

Peaking power plants have traditionally been fueled by either natural gas, diesel oil, or jet fuel.

I could go on but that is probably amply sufficient if anyone is interested.  It's probably time for some irrelevant photo or a massive copy and paste job that doesn't relate to the topic.


DunkingDan

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2020, 01:41:12 PM »
So far all you are doing is talking past what I said about how the industry was ran, not how it is ran now

Likewise in you effort to demonize you ignore examples that go to what I actually said, not what you wish I had said, as well as many other factors.

Coal plants when load  demand increased controls would automatically start ramping up output and it was based on rate of change, proportion of change and other factors. These controls were built in to the basic operational controls (Hint the unit operator rarely had to touch the controls unless they needed tweaking). That is if the plant was not operating at full power which most smaller unites were not. They would also ramp down when load decreased. I could go into much more detail but it would be beyond yours and Wikis level of knowledge.

Now dispatch could call up and say get unit x on line and proceed to this output to if units tripped or lad started trending to exceed current system capacity at the time too. Most smaller units could be up and running within a very short time

This was standard operation procedure at all utilities that had multiple units and multiple generating capacity units

If you think there was widespread gas plants until just very recently to do the same more efficiency you are further showing your lack of knowledge and your  willingness to try to show yourself as knowledgeable, when in actually you are a fucking idiot on most posts you respond as you can not help yourself and feel you must be like a dog and distribute you urine everywhere. That is why you are on ignore but as this is a field I have expertise in I decided to see what you regurgitated 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2020, 01:56:37 PM »
"All utilities have used coal to follow the load for years. Many units sit idle until they need them to start up and they can change output from zero to 100% rapidly. "

This assertion is clearly false.  Common sense is enough to know it is false.  But as I said, you are welcome to your own beliefs unsupported as they are by any number of technical and common sense items readily available.


DunkingDan

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2020, 02:15:15 PM »
As I said earlier So far all you are doing is talking past what I said about how the industry was ran, not how it is ran now

Likewise in you effort to demonize you ignore examples that go to what I actually said, not what you wish I had said, as well as many other factors.

If you knew much about fossil plants that are used for peak they sit idling at a very small output to keep systems warm. larger ones can generally ramp up to nameplate cap. in 10-15 hours max depending on many variables, smaller 100 mW can do it at a faster rate. Gas generators take ~ 3 hrs to get to 100 % Diesels which are only used in emergencies can ramp up faster still but their out put is small

Thanks for continuing to prove my points. As a note I make it a policy to not  discuss something I have no or very limited knowledge on, unlike some who expound on everything. 

Small coal units were used for years to follow load demands and controls based on what I described. We did into get into lead lag times and other sophisticated controls for their time and their effectiveness. Just think most of them were pneumatic as well. Small air leaks or changes in supply pressures played hell on them at times, hence the need to operations staff to tweak controllers, especially those that had, rate, proportional band and reset in them (and that is before we even think about other inputs/control functions/etc that could affect them.)


As I said and it still apllies ''If you think there was widespread gas plants until just very recently to do the same more efficiency you are further showing your lack of knowledge and your  willingness to try to show yourself as knowledgeable, when in actually you are a fucking idiot on most posts you respond as you can not help yourself and feel you must be like a dog and distribute you urine everywhere. That is why you are on ignore but as this is a field I have expertise in I decided to see what you regurgitated ''
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 02:24:20 PM by DunkingDan »
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Cincydawg

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Re: Electricity update Pt. 10
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2020, 02:25:13 PM »
Now you are blathering about stuff I never asserted, which is your usual silliness.

An NG turbine can start up and reach 100% in less than an hour.  They are basically jet engines.  

A coal plant will take 8-12 hours, for OBVIOUS reasons.

And I know we had a gas turbine used for cogeneration at one of our facilities in 1984.  This isn't some new technology.  NG turbines have been around for decades.


I see your usual lying and deception in action now coupled with cursing and name calling.  Your alleged "expertise" is appallingly poor in my view.

Now maybe you will want me to list all my 'science classes" I ever took again.  Oh wait, maybe you figured that was a losing proposition.  Maybe someone clued you in.


 

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