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Topic: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation

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billyboy75

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Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« on: April 18, 2019, 04:18:59 PM »
And thanks to an everlasting God that Christ came, was crucified as the lowest of the low, and then the world changed to try to honor his teachings.   

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/thank-god-for-western-values/?fbclid=IwAR1SQnQOQHQRowDEbUdT6qmvGmgZD2nm2n-qaxxABQwG8nvPg_v96hXXjJs

fuzzynavol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 05:13:13 PM »
And thanks to an everlasting God that Christ came, was crucified as the lowest of the low, and then the world changed to try to honor his teachings.  

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/thank-god-for-western-values/?fbclid=IwAR1SQnQOQHQRowDEbUdT6qmvGmgZD2nm2n-qaxxABQwG8nvPg_v96hXXjJs
The expansive Roman Empire gave rise to Western Civilization.  That Emperor Constantine made non-conformity to Christianity punishable by death was incidental.  Man infuses his moral values into his religion, not the other way around.  

DunkingDan

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 05:25:29 PM »
I see who flunked World History. Likewise he ignore the consequences of when man sets his own moral values.


Murders by Atheists (20th Century)
Country
Dates
Murders
Afghanistan1978-19921,750,000
Albania1944-1985100,000
Angola1975-2002125,000
Bulgaria1944-1989222,000
China/PRC1923-200776,702,000
Cuba1959-199273,000
Czechoslovakia1948-196865,000
Ethiopia1974-19911,343,610
France1793-179440,000
Greece1946-194920,000
Hungary1948-198927,000
Kampuchea/Cambodia1973-19912,627,000
Laos1975-200793,000
Mongolia1926-2007100,000
Mozambique1975-1990118,000
North Korea1948-20073,163,000
Poland1945-19481,607,000
Romania1948-1987438,000
Spain (Republic)1936-1939102,000
U.S.S.R.1917-198761,911,000
Vietnam1945-20071,670,000
Yugoslavia1944-19801,072,000

and there are others as well
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

VolRage

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 05:44:23 PM »
I see who flunked World History. Likewise he ignore the consequences of when man sets his own moral values.


Murders by Atheists (20th Century)
Country
Dates
Murders
Afghanistan1978-19921,750,000
Albania1944-1985100,000
Angola1975-2002125,000
Bulgaria1944-1989222,000
China/PRC1923-200776,702,000
Cuba1959-199273,000
Czechoslovakia1948-196865,000
Ethiopia1974-19911,343,610
France1793-179440,000
Greece1946-194920,000
Hungary1948-198927,000
Kampuchea/Cambodia1973-19912,627,000
Laos1975-200793,000
Mongolia1926-2007100,000
Mozambique1975-1990118,000
North Korea1948-20073,163,000
Poland1945-19481,607,000
Romania1948-1987438,000
Spain (Republic)1936-1939102,000
U.S.S.R.1917-198761,911,000
Vietnam1945-20071,670,000
Yugoslavia1944-19801,072,000

and there are others as well
Germany - about 11 million under the atheist Hitler.

HK_Vol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 06:13:58 PM »
The author of the piece in the Spectator is a historian - and I don't think Tom Holland is a Christian, I think he is agnostic.

Good interview here (5 minutes):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIJ9gK47Ogw

Full interview (1 hour)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlf_ULB26cU


Good book by Rodney Stark:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812972333/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2

The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success


Many books have been written about the success of the West, analyzing why Europe was able to pull ahead of the rest of the world by the end of the Middle Ages. The most common explanations cite the West’s superior geography, commerce, and technology. Completely overlooked is the fact that faith in reason, rooted in Christianity’s commitment to rational theology, made all these developments possible. Simply put, the conventional wisdom that Western success depended upon overcoming religious barriers to progress is utter nonsense.In The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark advances a revolutionary, controversial, and long overdue idea: that Christianity and its related institutions are, in fact, directly responsible for the most significant intellectual, political, scientific, and economic breakthroughs of the past millennium. In Stark’s view, what has propelled the West is not the tension between secular and nonsecular society, nor the pitting of science and the humanities against religious belief. Christian theology, Stark asserts, is the very font of reason: While the world’s other great belief systems emphasized mystery, obedience, or introspection, Christianity alone embraced logic and reason as the path toward enlightenment, freedom, and progress. That is what made all the difference.In explaining the West’s dominance, Stark convincingly debunks long-accepted “truths.” For instance, by contending that capitalism thrived centuries before there was a Protestant work ethic–or even Protestants–he counters the notion that the Protestant work ethic was responsible for kicking capitalism into overdrive. In the fifth century, Stark notes, Saint Augustine celebrated theological and material progress and the institution of “exuberant invention.” By contrast, long before Augustine, Aristotle had condemned commercial trade as “inconsistent with human virtue”–which helps further underscore that Augustine’s times were not the Dark Ages but the incubator for the West’s future glories. This is a sweeping, multifaceted survey that takes readers from the Old World to the New, from the past to the present, overturning along the way not only centuries of prejudiced scholarship but the antireligious bias of our own time. The Victory of Reason proves that what we most admire about our world–scientific progress, democratic rule, free commerce–is largely due to Christianity, through which we are all inheritors of this grand tradition.

DunkingDan

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 06:39:51 PM »
Germany - about 11 million under the atheist Hitler.
True. However someone thinks he was a Christian 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

HK_Vol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2019, 07:01:20 PM »
However some think he was a Christian 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer would certainly disagree with that statement.

Good biography on him that I read last year:

Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy 
by Eric Metaxas


https://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Martyr-Prophet-Spy/dp/1595551387/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1555628419&sr=1-1



DunkingDan

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2019, 07:35:29 PM »
However some think he was a Christian

Dietrich Bonhoeffer would certainly disagree with that statement.

Good biography on him that I read last year:

Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy
by Eric Metaxas


https://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Martyr-Prophet-Spy/dp/1595551387/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1555628419&sr=1-1
My opinion and based on everything I know, unless Adolph had a last minute conversation he will not be an inhabitant of Heaven.
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

billyboy75

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2019, 08:20:00 PM »
The expansive Roman Empire gave rise to Western Civilization.  That Emperor Constantine made non-conformity to Christianity punishable by death was incidental.  Man infuses his moral values into his religion, not the other way around.  
What is you source for the notion that Constantine made non-conformity to Christianity punishable by death?
Here is a fairly thorough, and not particular complimentary biography, and it makes no mention of it.  Could you have deviated from historical accuracy?   Does this show a bias against Christians, especially those of the Byzantine era?
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Constantine-I-Roman-emperor

fuzzynavol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2019, 08:38:27 PM »
What is you source for the notion that Constantine made non-conformity to Christianity punishable by death?

I thought it was common knowledge.  

Here is a fairly thorough, and not particular complimentary biography, and it makes no mention of it.  Could you have deviated from historical accuracy?  

I may have - it appears we'll never know for sure.  Here's what wikipedia says:

Constantine was a ruler of major importance, and he has always been a controversial figure.[8] The fluctuations in his reputation reflect the nature of the ancient sources for his reign. These are abundant and detailed,[9] but they have been strongly influenced by the official propaganda of the period[10] and are often one-sided;[11] no contemporaneous histories or biographies dealing with his life and rule have survived.[12] The nearest replacement is Eusebius's Vita Constantini—a mixture of eulogy and hagiography[13] written between 335 AD and circa 339 AD[14]—that extols Constantine's moral and religious virtues.[15] The Vita creates a contentiously positive image of Constantine,[16] and modern historians have frequently challenged its reliability.[17] The fullest secular life of Constantine is the anonymous Origo Constantini,[18] a work of uncertain date,[19] which focuses on military and political events to the neglect of cultural and religious matters.[20]

billyboy75

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2019, 09:11:05 PM »
it isn't common knowledge because it isnt true.

You got your "facts" wrong.

HK_Vol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2019, 09:13:20 PM »
Constantine was first and foremost a politician.

If we presume generously that the Roman Empire at that time was 50% Christian - that means that at least 50% were pagan.
Constantine was Emperor for a reason - he wasn't stupid.
He wasn't going to alienate half the population by persecuting those that weren't Christian.
His biggest move was to quit persecuting Christians because they had become too large a percentage of the population - so he decided to quit alienating them.


fuzzynavol

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2019, 11:19:37 PM »
it isn't common knowledge because it isnt true.

You got your "facts" wrong.
Maybe - according to wiki we simply don't have reliable information.  I'm happy to delete that part of my original assertion, the logic of which still stands:
The expansive Roman Empire gave rise to Western Civilization (not Christianity).  Man infuses his moral values into his religion, not the other way around.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Christianity gave rise to Western Civilzation
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 02:44:58 PM »
Until circa 1500 AD, Western Europe was not more "civilized" or advanced technically than the Ottoman Empire or even the Chinese.  Some pivotal items that happened after that:

1.  Colonization of the new world and India
2.  Development of advanced ocean going technologies.
3.  Continued development of armaments as nation fought with each other.
4.  The Reformation.
5.  The Renaissance.


 

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