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Topic: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting

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DunkingDan

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society

Only a few years ago, the aggressive “New Atheist” movement was on the march, with rhetorical brawlers like Christopher Hitchens and renowned biologists like Richard Dawkins leading the charge against religion and the last vestiges of Christian faith in the West. Religion, Hitchens famously stated, “poisons everything,” and could only be considered, at best, humanity’s “first and worst” attempt to solve existential questions. If these cobwebbed superstitions could be blasted away by the refreshing winds of reason and the Enlightenment, a fundamentally better society would rise from the ashes—or so the thinking went.
But as Christianity fades further and further into our civilization’s rear-view mirror, many intelligent atheists are beginning to realize that the Enlightenment may have only achieved success because it wielded influence on a Christian culture. In a truly secular society, in which men and women live their lives beneath empty heavens and expect to be recycled rather than resurrected, there is no solid moral foundation for good and evil. Anti-theists like Christopher Hitchens mocked and reviled the idea that mankind needed God to know right from wrong, but scarcely two generations into our Great Secularization and we no longer even know male from female.
It would be interesting to know how the late Hitchens would have responded to the insanities that have proliferated since his passing, and whether he would have come to realize, as some of his similarly godless friends have, that one does not need to find Christianity believable to realize that it is necessary. Douglas Murray, who has taken to occasionally calling himself a “Christian atheist,” has publicly argued with Hitchens’ fellow “Horseman of the Apocalypse” Sam Harris over whether a society based on Enlightenment values is even possible without Christianity. Harris holds out hope that such a society is possible. Murray is sympathetic, but skeptical. 



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https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/atheists-sound-the-alarm-decline-of-christianity-is-seriously-hurting-society?fbclid=IwAR309g_GCoAlrAXNnbOVvu5dop6bdLb4-nmXAehJc1Dm10aQ8brHgIUBwOM
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

CatsbyAZ

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 07:28:45 PM »
society

Douglas Murray, who has taken to occasionally calling himself a “Christian atheist,” has publicly argued with Hitchens’ fellow “Horseman of the Apocalypse” Sam Harris over whether a society based on Enlightenment values is even possible without Christianity. Harris holds out hope that such a society is possible. Murray is sympathetic.

This has always been my biggest question about actively removing Christianity from culture and public view - whether humans in turn can be counted on to come up with and follow through with a moral order of their own making. My hunch is no.

Even among the most ragged edges of Western Civilization, Christianity was always able to provide a moral template that informed the order of society, such as the courts and education system. Where there were inevitable ambiguities, Christianity was available as respected resource for coloring in the gray areas. Like in Jurassic Park, remember how frog DNA was used to fill in the blanks for genetically constructing a dinosaur? Similarly Christianity has for so long been used to fill in the blanks of moral ambiguity that we ignore concerns over what a more humanist morality might look like.

Cincydawg

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 07:36:36 PM »
Would you opine that Japan has this "sense of moral order"?  Israel?  India?

billyboy75

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 08:18:02 PM »
Israel and Christianity share the same root values, and the latter is the more moral of the two, tho they are similar.

Hindus are pacifists largely, harmless, and often led to the slaughter by Muslims, just like Christians and Jews.

Japan?  I don't know much about the shinto religion, but it is based on a high sense of duty and honor.  When unrestrained, it led the the slaughter of millions, an especially cruel culture until the aftermath of WWII, when it was replaced by a largely westernized form of Christian philosophy.

None are anywhere near atheism, which is devoid of morality.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 08:24:28 PM by billyboy75 »

fuzzynavol

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 08:33:21 PM »
None are anywhere near atheism

What about Sweden?

which is devoid of morality.

If only Christianity were devoid of elitism.  

Man infuses his ideas of morality into his mythologies, not the other way around. 

According to most Christians here, all one has to do to be promised a blissful immortality in paradise is to "accept Jesus Christ as their lord & savior."  It doesn't matter if you behave morally or not, because "we're all sinners." 

Cincydawg

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2019, 11:28:35 PM »
So Christianity is not a requirement then.

highVOLtage

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 11:31:10 PM »
"all one has to do to be promised a blissful immortality in paradise is to "accept Jesus Christ as their lord & savior."  It doesn't matter if you behave morally or not"

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Immoral behavior and openly sinning against God does indeed matter. If you're actively doing that then you probably haven't truly accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want (lawlessness) just because you have a get out of hell free card.

Cincydawg

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 07:11:39 AM »
One might argue that some form of religious belief is helpful in securing a stable, moral society.

Of course, the morality of some religions is different from our own.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 09:48:24 AM »
"all one has to do to be promised a blissful immortality in paradise is to "accept Jesus Christ as their lord & savior."  It doesn't matter if you behave morally or not"

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Immoral behavior and openly sinning against God does indeed matter.
 
As with most anything, you can quote scripture that supports your assertion, and scripture that contradicts it.  

If you're actively doing that then you probably haven't truly accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior.
 
What if this acceptance happens after the sin?  The acceptance trumps everything, and all is forgiven, right?  Thus, moral behavior doesn't really matter, does it?

It doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want (lawlessness) just because you have a get out of hell free card.

I can't promise you there's no such thing as any supernatural phenomena, although we've never encountered it and there's absolutely no reason to believe it exists.  But it should be painfully obvious to any objectively rational adult that notions of "heaven" and "hell" are silly, ancient myths.  

People who undertake moral behavior solely because they think they're collecting bargaining chips to get into some imaginary paradise are the intellectual casualties of people in the immortality business and are deluded as to the true value of leading an examined life.  

highVOLtage

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 10:44:50 AM »
fuzzy, what is "an examined life" and what is "the true value of leading [one]"?

BrownCounty

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2019, 10:52:47 AM »
But it should be painfully obvious to any objectively rational adult that notions of "heaven" and "hell" are silly, ancient myths.

Ironic how you used the term "painfully" in your denial of hell.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2019, 11:07:23 AM »
fuzzy, what is "an examined life" and what is "the true value of leading [one]"?
I'd like to have a sincere conversation about that with you, Volty, but given how prone you are to self-deception, I'm under no illusion that's possible.  




fuzzynavol

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2019, 11:11:28 AM »

Ironic how you used the term "painfully" in your denial of hell.
Don't worry Brownie, I've got a plan.  If I'm wrong and find myself at the pearly gates on judgement day, I'm just going to distract god, "hey look, that angel broke a string on her harp over there on that cloud!" and kick Him in the shin when he looks over and just run through the gates and into heaven.  He'll never find me among all the other souls, and won't have time because there will be such a long line behind me.  It's fool-proof!

Cincydawg

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Re: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2019, 03:40:30 PM »
I still wonder if folks here view Japan as a reasonably moral state these days.

 

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