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Topic: (For “Free Thinkers”) — “Free will thinkers: Atheists or Christians?”

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Volbrigade/oU

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The wife and I were streaming YouTube on the ol’ big screen last night (a favorite form of entertainment).  Came across an algorithm suggestion for the linked short (less than 6 mins.) video.  I recognized the thumbnail from a Christian Apologetics fb page I frequent.  I told my wife “hey — that’s the dude I correspond with on…” that fb page.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS1vJePLGHI&fbclid=IwAR0uY5j-5VbIX604RQg2SkT0XhpqxoUHTp9WYi-YKc76LNcy81orAE47p-U
Tim Stratton does an OUTSTANDING job (better than me, dang it) of laying out some of the arguments that fuzz, Cincy and me have been bantering over in the “I’m-a gonna tell ya how it’s-a gonna be…” thread.

Thought I give it it’s own thread, in case anyone else might be interested…

Here’s a snip — C. S. Lewis’ classic argument, which I should’ve looked up and used, but didn’t:
_______________

“Suppose there were no Intelligence behind the universe.  In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking.  Thought is merely the byproduct of some atoms within my skull.  But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?…

But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course, I can’t trust the arguments leading to atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an atheist, or anything else.  Unless I believe in God, I can’t believe in thought; so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”

fuzzynavol

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Suppose there were no Intelligence behind the universe.

That's easy enough to do.

In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking.

Right - it evolved over millions of years.

Thought is merely the byproduct of some atoms within my skull.

Exactly.  

But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?

Are atoms known to be dishonest?  How can theists trust their thoughts - maybe they'e being dictated by Satan.  

But if I can’t trust my own thinking

But you can.  With all due respect to all you supernaturalists out there, we didn't evolve the ability for thought to live in a world of pervasive self-deception.  If we had, we'd have probably met the same fate as the Neanderthals and the Denisovans.  

I can’t trust the arguments leading to atheism

Although this is a particularly weak argument, at least it is new.

and therefore have no reason to be an atheist

The reason to be an atheist is there is no rational reason to believe any claims by supernaturalists.  

Unless I believe in God, I can’t believe in thought; so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”

How deep does one's need to have their bias confirmed have to be to take that seriously?  

Sam Harris was right by the way.  


Cincydawg

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I couldn't get past the first few assertions.

This is not remotely persuasive stuff, to me, in fact, it's ridiculous stuff to me.    Thanks.


fuzzynavol

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I couldn't get past the first few assertions.

This is not remotely persuasive stuff, to me, in fact, it's ridiculous stuff to me.    Thanks.
I know - what a joke.  Doesn't oU seem too smart for all that?  I suffered through the whole thing in case there was anything worthwhile, and it just kept getting more ridiculous.  

Cincydawg

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When someone starts with blanket assertions with no logic or evidence or support from anywhere, I lose interest ...

I imagine this plays well with some Christians who are seeking some kind of basis for wavering support of their belief set, maybe.

I've already stipulated several times that the concept of a Creator is reasonable, it's just not provable.  Said Creator might well be Allah or Mazda Zarathustra of Klipesnightbalm.

fuzzynavol

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I've already stipulated several times that the concept of a Creator is reasonable, it's just not provable. 
He could appear before us tomorrow and start performing miracles.  It's happened before according to most Americans, conveniently before the era of YouTube.  


I'm not holding my breath.  

scotchvol

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Why do we need to believe in a god? And furthermore I do not need to give you or anyone an argument for atheism, I have nothing to prove...you do.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 07:49:32 PM by scotchvol »

ZenMode

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This is a big topic that warrants significant discussion, but I'll just say this for now....

Not authoring your thoughts and not trusting your thoughts, as is being asserted, aren't the same thing.

I believe that 2 + 2 =4.  I believe that because of the information I've taken in, throughout my life, that has molded certain parts of my brain to tell me that is valid.

Much like my view on God is based on evidence, my view on free will/free thought is also based on evidence.

I'll add this...

If you're a Christian, you have to believe in free will.  Martin Luther tried to walk the line of free and not free will and failed.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 07:38:20 PM by ZenMode »

Volbrigade/oU

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// “But if I can’t trust my own thinking…”

But you can.  With all due respect to all you supernaturalists out there, we didn't evolve the ability for thought to live in a world of pervasive self-deception.  If we had, we'd have probably met the same fate as the Neanderthals and the Denisovans.  //



What you have written is either a cause-and-effect interaction of blind, unguided processes, and thus of no validity whatsoever…

or one of the better reasonings against the m2m canard I’ve come across lately.

Atoms interacting with atoms, increasing in complex formulations over time (when we have not seen even one instance of such an occurrence; even though legions of materialists have been desperately searching for one, with increasingly complex technologies — themselves, I’ll point out for those keeping score, the product of Intelligence and Design — for well over a hundred years), ultimately “climbing Mt. Impossible” to the point where independent, abstract thought is possible, and able to justify its adherence to reality and truth:

that shouldn’t be against odds much more than 10 with a triple digit exponent.

Simply put:  even if m2m existed, we’d never never know it.  We’d be extinct.  Or incapable of abstract thought.  Which was a capacity the so-called “Neanderthals” had, by the way (they were merely a “people group” with shared traits among the population of Homo Sapiens, which arose after The Flood).

It is because we are the product of Intelligent Design that our thoughts can have validity.

I’m just annoyed that Tim got to the “no free will, no free thought” obvious conclusion before I did.

I just wasn’t using my free will to think freely enough…



DunkingDan

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Scratch strikes out again
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2020, 08:56:50 PM »
Why do we need to believe in a god? And furthermore I do not need to give you or anyone an argument for atheism, I have nothing to prove...you do.
Your statement is trying to justify/prove your belief system
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

ZenMode

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Re: Scratch strikes out again
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2020, 09:11:00 PM »
Your statement is trying to justify/prove your belief system
The bourdon of proof is on the theists, not the atheists.   For example, despite what TV may lead you to believe,  I don't need to prove that Big Foot and ghosts don't exist.

DunkingDan

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Re: Scratch strikes out again
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2020, 11:52:57 PM »
The bourdon of proof is on the theists, not the atheists.  For example, despite what TV may lead you to believe,  I don't need to prove that Big Foot and ghosts don't exist.
Try responding to what I actually said in context.


President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

Volitale

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The bourdon of proof is on the theists, not the atheists.  For example, despite what TV may lead you to believe,  I don't need to prove that Big Foot and ghosts don't exist.
You might as well say “I’m lazy and don’t know how to give evidence to support my disbelief.”  Why are you here?  Either discuss or don’t discuss.  

ZenMode

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You might as well say “I’m lazy and don’t know how to give evidence to support my disbelief.”  Why are you here?  Either discuss or don’t discuss. 

Not to be insulting with this comparison, but how would one give evidence that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

 

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