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Author Topic: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise  (Read 577 times)

Offline Orange Afro Man

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Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« on: July 14, 2017, 12:45:05 AM »
All results thus far:
Penn St, LSU, Oregon
Alabama, Michigan, USC
Washington, Clemson, A&M
Georgia, Wisconsin, Stanford
Ohio St, Texas, Miami
Auburn, UCLA, Syracuse
Oklahoma, Nebraska, Florida
Notre Dame, Florida St, Tennessee
Arkansas, Iowa, Arizona St
Michigan St, Colorado, BYU
Pitt, Ga Tech, TCU
Va Tech, West Va, Ole Miss

Nebraska, Florida St, LSU
Notre Dame, Alabama, Pitt
Miami, Stanford, BYU
Michigan, Texas, Ga Tech
Penn St, Georgia, Washington
Florida, Syracuse, Arizona St
Clemson, Wisconsin, UCLA
Ohio St, Auburn, Va Tech
Tennessee, Oregon, TCU
West Va, Iowa, Colorado
Oklahoma, Michigan St, Arkansas
USC, A&M, Ole Miss
The Swamp...only Gators get out alive!

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 07:51:52 AM »
Need more voting.

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 04:59:26 PM »
yeah, I'm not sure what to do at the moment.  If I start posting trios here, not enough people will vote.  If I post them on the other site, we'll get more participation, but it may suddenly disappear.

What to do!?!
The Swamp:  only Gators get out alive!

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 05:00:03 PM »
Sorry for the 2 accounts thing, I'll only use this one.
The Swamp:  only Gators get out alive!

Online Drew4UTk

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 08:48:16 PM »
no worries about the accounts...

i'm thinking, though, this would fit better in the general football board... and i'm also thinking that all these conference boards might just have to go unless people show up starting Sunday.....

we'll see?

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 09:49:22 PM »
Can you post the trios on both, but only list results here? That way you get the votes, and we encourage posters to come over. :72:

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 11:19:08 PM »
I was thinking of doing something like that...I just don't think ppl are going to come over until they have to.  I'll try it.

Does the general football board get nearly the same traffic as the B10 board? 
The Swamp:  only Gators get out alive!

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 11:22:52 PM »
Next trio (in alphabetical order):

Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma
The Swamp:  only Gators get out alive!

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2017, 12:03:29 AM »
Please only vote once.  Either here OR at the CFN board.  Thanks.
The Swamp:  only Gators get out alive!

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2017, 01:08:18 AM »
I voted over there.  :sign0144:

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2017, 08:38:48 AM »
Next trio (in alphabetical order):

Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma


Ohio State
Oklahoma
Notre Dame

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 04:01:54 PM »
I'm a little shocked, I thought with the amount of "ND is the greatest helmet of all" crowd that the Doomers would win running away.

But, all the peeps who list ND as #1, have OSU as #2. And there is a significant minority (myself included) for various reasons have stated the ND gold shine has tarnished, they mostly have OSU as #1 and ND down at #3.

So, even though the OSU #1 crowd is smaller, this is turning out to be a really close vote.

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 04:03:35 PM »
Re-post from other board.
Here is my list of Helmets (prestigious teams, modified from Mandel's King list) I believe it is changeable, but it takes a decade of dominance with national titles (to get on,) or a decade of irrelevancy (to slid off) for change to happen.

1) Alabama SEC
2) Ohio State B1G
3) Texas B12
4) USC P12
5) Oklahoma B12
6) Florida State ACC
7) Michigan B1G
8 )Florida SEC
9) LSU SEC
10)Penn State B1G
11) Notre Dame Ind

SEC - 3
B1G - 3
B12 - 2
ACC - 1
P12 - 1
Ind - 1

My "On The Cusp" group:
12) Nebraska
13) Clemson
14) Tennessee
15) Oregon
16) Miami
« Last Edit: Today at 01:18:51 PM by TyphonInc »

Offline MrNubbz

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 06:57:04 PM »
Like your 1-10 list

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 08:14:31 PM »
Re=post from other board.
Here is my list of Helmets (prestigious teams, modified from Mandel's King list) I believe it is changeable, but it takes a decade of dominance with national titles, or a decade of irrelevancy for change to happen.

1) Alabama SEC
2) Ohio State B1G
3) Texas B12
4) USC P12

5) Oklahoma B12
6) Florida State ACC
7) Michigan B1G
8 ) Florida SEC
9) LSU SEC
10)Penn State B1G
11) Notre Dame Ind


SEC - 3
B1G - 3
B12 - 2
ACC - 1
P12 - 1
Ind - 1

My "On The Cusp" group:
12) Nebraska
13) Clemson
14) Tennessee
15) Oregon
16) Miami


So, what?

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 07:31:44 AM »
Well 1st off, the decade drawn line is not a hard line; it's more of a fuzzy math. And IMHO once your on the helmet list "double digit win" seasons is needed to be consider to perform at helmet level (10 win seasons doesn't get you on the list, but will keep you there.)

Keeping them high on my list even with current non-helmet performances:
Texas - 2 great seasons and a natty in the last decade, if Hermon bombs out they slid on my list.
USC - 4 Rose Bowl Wins in the last decade.

Sliding down on my Prestige list:
7-10 - Helmets in my book, but not performing as well as the teams above them. Meat-chicken under Harbaugh is right there, but not winning against OSU, repeat 3rd place Big Ten East finishes, and losing their only "Big" bowl, says they have not returned to the mountain top.

Notre Dame - Haven't performed at helmet since Lou Holtz circa '93. Personally I think their 2012 season was lucky and getting crushed by Alabama confirmed that for me.

Slipped off my Helmet list:
Nebraska - Solich had a couple great years ... last millennium.
Tennessee - Fulmer won them a natty ... last millennium.
Miami - Amazing 20 year run ... in the Big East, haven't been a contender for 15 years of ACC.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:46:22 AM by TyphonInc »

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 08:16:55 AM »
USC and Texas and Michigan just don't carry the same cache to me as they did 10 years ago.

I think USC has the right coach now, but we'll see. Things can change in a hurry out there, as we've seen.

Michigan seems to have the right coach, but can he sustain without burning out himself, his coaches and his players?

I'm not sold on Hermann just yet. He did good things at Houston for sure, but he was also had a foundation built for him when he got there. Sumlin did a good job there too, as did Briles before him. The other guy before Hermann.. not so much. He was not a good coach.

Online TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 10:08:23 AM »
*ich - I think OSU's accession has paralleled skunk-weasel's demise. 
When one side is dominating the rivalry it's hard to apply helmet status to the other.

USC - won the Rose last year, and the early pick to make the playoff this year. That's recent on field success and a helmet ranking for the next year. They had some lean years but they are solid. Also no one in the Pac 12 south has stepped up to displace USC.

Texas - I'll acknowledge I'm giving them  more grace than you are; I want to see how the next 3 years play out before I lower their prestige status.

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 10:33:26 AM »
Your reasoning is more an indication of conference strength than helmet status.

USC is going to be all alone in the South for a while I think. The AZ schools are a mess, and UCLA achieves less with more, than probably any school I can think of over the years. I don't know what the long term looks like for Colorado and Utah.

I think Washington is going to be a beast for a while. Great coach and great school, like Stanford, but better access to talent.

As for the XII.. I don't know what to think anymore. The Oklahoma schools seem to be the pick for the top this season. Baylor is burning at the stake... Texas really needs to make hay this season in my opinion.

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 03:02:07 PM »
Time to move it over here.

So, will Michigan be Minnesota in 37 years?

Minnesota is celebrating 50 years without a conference title.

Michigan is celebrating 13.


Have at it.

Offline MrNubbz

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2017, 04:22:41 PM »
Gophs getting ready to spring the trap

Online OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2017, 07:24:00 PM »
Last call on the big, sexy trio....
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Offline Kris61

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2017, 05:51:37 AM »
Are we doing this here now?

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2017, 06:25:23 AM »
Are we doing this here now?

Why not? The old thread reached its maximum posts and the old place is closing on 7/26 according to CBS.

Offline Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2017, 07:24:39 AM »
ND

OSU

OU

I think that is still open.


Offline medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2017, 07:48:51 AM »
Well 1st off, the decade drawn line is not a hard line; it's more of a fuzzy math. And IMHO once your on the helmet list "double digit win" seasons is needed to be consider to perform at helmet level (10 win seasons doesn't get you on the list, but will keep you there.)

I made this point on the old thread in a discussion with dude.  I think it is why the list appears fairly static.  I worded it somewhat differently:  To maintain helmet status a team needs only to PLAY in big nationally relevant games.  To attain helmet status a team needs to WIN big nationally relevant games. 

Example, Michigan:
In the past 11 years Michigan has played two huge, nationally relevant games with Ohio State (2006&2016) and lost both.  Insofar as Michigan's helmet status is concerned I'm not sure that the fact that they lost both games really matters.  They were already a helmet and getting into games like that affirmed their helmet status.  Now, if Ohio State's opponent in those games had been a school like Indiana then the result would have been enormously important to Indiana.  Indiana isn't a helmet and they can't become a helmet by PLAYING in huge, nationally relevant games.  Indiana could only become a helmet by WINNING huge, nationally relevant games. 

Last 11 Ohio State/Michigan games:
  • 2016:  #2 Ohio State v #3 Michigan (tOSU won)
    2015:  #8 Ohio State v #10 Michigan (tOSU won)
    2014:  #6 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won)
    2013:  #3 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won)
    2012:  n/r (ineligible) Ohio State v #19 Michigan (tOSU won)
    2011:  n/r Ohio State v #15 Michigan (Michigan won)
    2010:  #8 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won, subsequently vacated)
    2009:  #10 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won)
    2008:  #10 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won)
    2007:  #7 Ohio State v n/r Michigan (tOSU won)
    2006:  #1 Ohio State v #2 Michigan (tOSU won)

There were three top-10 match-ups in the last 11 years but the 2015 game wasn't really nationally relevant because neither team had a realistic chance at the NC.  The winner (either way) needed Penn State to upset Michigan State to even get to the B1GCG.  The 2016 and 2006 games, however, were huge games.  They were nationally relevant because both teams had a realistic chance at the NC. 

Offline medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2017, 07:55:55 AM »
Time to move it over here.

So, will Michigan be Minnesota in 37 years?

Minnesota is celebrating 50 years without a conference title.

Michigan is celebrating 13.


Have at it.
The comparison is even better than that.  Minnesota's last conference title (1967) was a co-championship just like Michigan's (2004).  Additionally, both teams won their last NC seven seasons prior to their last conference title (1960 for Minnesota, 1997 for Michigan) and both of those are also claimed by other schools. 

I do not think that Michigan WILL be celebrating the 50th anniversary of their last conference title and the 57th anniversary of their last NC in 2054 but I strongly feel that if they ARE, they will be a non-helmet just like Minnesota is now. 

Offline 847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2017, 08:04:12 AM »
Yeah, I don't see it happening either. M puts too many resources into the program to let it fall apart.

But I don't think they will ever go on a clip like they used to be, winning conference titles almost every year. The conference is much better/deeper than it was back in those days.

Ohio State is on another level and likely will be for some time.

Offline medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2017, 08:52:40 AM »
But I don't think they will ever go on a clip like they used to be, winning conference titles almost every year. The conference is much better/deeper than it was back in those days.

Nobody will but that isn't just because the conference is better/deeper, it is also because there are no more co-championships.  Per the B1G Media guide (link:  http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/big10/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2016-17/prospectus/prospectus.pdf the Wolverines have 42 league titles.  By my quick count, 26 or more than half were co-championships. 

Consider this another way:
Per the aforementioned B1G Media guide, heading into the 2016 season there had been 172 league champions.  Subtract the five won by UW, MSU, and tOSU in the B1GCG era and you get 167 in the pre-CG era.  Then add one for tOSU's vacated 2010 title and you get 168 league titles awarded in the 115 years from 1896-2010.  On average that works out to just under 1.5 league titles awarded per year.  Thus, with the advent of the B1GCG the total number of league titles awarded has been reduced by about 0.5 per year. 

Getting back to Michigan:
In my opinion your characterization of the way Michigan used to be as "winning conference titles almost every year" somewhat exaggerates the Wolverines historical success.  I submit that it should be amended to "winning conference titles about every other year." 

AFAIK, the Wolverines never won more than five-straight.  They accomplished that from 1988-1992.  I think you make a good point.  It would be a lot harder to do that now.  Ohio State was (relatively) down at that time, Wisconsin was a bottom-feeder, Penn State was an independent, Nebraska was in the Big8, etc.  That was also the best Michigan ever did in terms of league titles.  Overall Michigan has been in the league for 111 years (11 from 1896-1906 and 100 from 1917-2016).  They have won 42 league titles which works out to a little better than one every three years. 

The Wolverines have two major league title droughts.  They won only one title in the 18 years from 1951 through 1968 and they haven't won any in the 12 years since 2004.  If you back out those 30 years and that one title they won 41 league titles in their other 81 years in the league.  That is a rate of almost exactly one every other year. 

Offline Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2017, 09:10:34 AM »
Not too many years ago, the SEC champs were varied as well.  All sorts of teams in the top 6 won it.

Now, it's pretty much one team and a bunch of also runs.  Such things do tend to cycle a bit to some extent.  We don't expect UK to win the SEC in say 2023, but it would not be a shock if any of the top 6 did and Alabama was say 10-3.


 

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